Why 'We' is the Most Important Word in Leadership

[00:00:00] Kyle McDowell: I was up for this promotion and, um, I thought it was, I thought it was a shoe in for it. I didn't get the role. And I went back to the president, the guy that I was reporting to at the time, who made the decision to hire someone else. And I said, Ted, you know, what could I have done differently? I just, any feedback would be helpful.

[00:00:14] Kyle McDowell: I'll never forget. Ted said, Kyle, when we were going through the hiring process for your, for your now new boss, um, your division was not performing well and you never asked for help. I thought. Well, no, I didn't ask for help because I needed to prove to you I could do this. I was able to fix this. What a shame.

[00:00:33] Kyle McDowell: What an arrogant, egotistical reaction and what a shame.

[00:00:40] Nikki La Croce: Hey gang, I'm Nikki La Croce and today I'm sharing the mic with Kyle McDowell. Kyle's the author of Begin With We, 10 Principles for Building and Sustaining a Culture of Excellence, as well as a renowned speaker and leadership expert. Kyle's mission is to help transform apathy into optimism and fear into fulfillment while creating authentic leaders and high performing teams.

[00:00:59] Nikki La Croce: I love this mission. I wish that you had been present in many of my corporate, uh, jobs and environments. So I'm thrilled to have you here, Kyle, to talk about you and what you're doing. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:13] Kyle McDowell: Hey, Nikki, thank you so much for that introduction. Great to be here. Um, and, and thank you for the kind words.

[00:01:19] Nikki La Croce: Absolutely. So I feel like a good place to start. And as I said to you before we were recording, I think sometimes it, it's not necessarily the right direction to go to start with sort of, Oh, you have a book, let's talk about it. But I do feel that there's The fact that your book is really about building an environment, forget sort of the corporate business side of it.

[00:01:44] Nikki La Croce: It's about building an environment where people are able to feel safe, to share their perspectives, to feel seen, to feel heard, and to be understood. And that's really at the core of this show. And so I wanted to start by asking you, um, Because the, just the sheer concept of beginning with we, while it is focused on a collective, I think has to, I imagine, originate from a lot of introspection on your end to be able to think through what is it that you understand and know either about yourself or your experience that could be a catalyst for that.

[00:02:22] Nikki La Croce: Is that an accurate assumption? Um, not

[00:02:25] Kyle McDowell: entirely. Um, believe it. Yeah. Okay, great. Call me

[00:02:28] Nikki La Croce: out on that. ,

[00:02:29] Kyle McDowell: uh, believe it or not, um, so the concept, uh, for me began back in, I guess it was like 2017 or so, and I had just taken on a new, new role. Um, where the organization I was inheriting was about 14, 15, 000 people.

[00:02:46] Kyle McDowell: Um, big, big shop. Um, it was a 7 billion program that I ran. And when I took the role, uh, the gentleman that hired me shared that there was some cultural challenges. There were some issues, um, that I was going to have to, to, to address early. Well, I, I was game for that, but as I got kind of, uh, indoctrinated into this new role about 60 days into the role, you know, I learned a lot of things.

[00:03:13] Kyle McDowell: Um, I learned that the leadership team that was, you know, my group of direct reports, they were. Um, uh, they had tons of tenure. There were nearly a dozen years average tenure. They had seen people in my position come and go. The gentleman before me, I believe was fired. I think the woman before him might've been fired as well or left on, on, on, you know, not good terms.

[00:03:34] Kyle McDowell: Um, uh, I knew that I had to do something different and it occurred to me if I were to approach this group of leaders, which I did about 90 days into my tenure, I scheduled a meeting for the top 40 or 50 leaders in the organization to come to. to come together. It was in Lawrence, Kansas, of all places. And that was going to be my chance to kind of.

[00:03:55] Kyle McDowell: show them who I was, but I realized the night before that if I were to step on stage and talk about how, what Kyle was going to do, um, how I was here to change anything or save anything or transform anything, how I was there to do anything that occurred to me, this group was too smart for that. They'd seen that before.

[00:04:13] Kyle McDowell: They, they wouldn't resonate. Um, but I did say, Um, I went through a list of expectations, which turned out to be the 10 whees, but my expectations were not solely of them to me. It was how they should expect me to behave. It was very clear about that. So I'd love to say there was some muse on my shoulder when I created these 10 principles, um, that are now the 10 whees, which are the foundation of the book begin with we, I wish there was some muse and some kind of sexy story about how this came about.

[00:04:43] Kyle McDowell: But, um, I just, it just, it, it, I was touched the night before in a way that, um, that just told me from some place, somewhere that if you want different results, dude, you're going to have to lead differently. And I did.

[00:04:56] Nikki La Croce: I love that you say that though, because I actually, um, I'll challenge you on that a little bit, that it isn't, you know, sort of this, um, compelling origin, because I do feel a lot of times those moments where something, you know, I guess the universe, I'm thinking of my mother from the other side, sort of like giving you that smack on the back of the head, like, Hey, are you going to like, what are you going to do about it?

[00:05:17] Nikki La Croce: Kind of thing, right? It's like, you knew going into that situation, something told you, because you could have walked in, you could have walked in and said all of those things. And, You recognized that you were walking into a situation that where there was effectively shaky ground? Um, there was probably a sense of distrust to some extent.

[00:05:36] Nikki La Croce: Sure. If there was a lot of turnover. Sure. And so I do think that there is something to be said for the fact that just even that sheer moment of recognition and deciding I'm gonna pivot this way, is a pretty important. moment in actually uncovering, you know, the rest of that, um, really building out those principles.

[00:05:57] Kyle McDowell: So true, but I can't, I can't go any further with you until I acknowledge your mother on the other side, uh, coming through shaking. Cause I, I, I love that feeling. I know that feeling. And you struck a chord with me when you said that. Um, If we're both lucky, they're shoulder to shoulder watching this and that's, they're really good.

[00:06:14] Kyle McDowell: Yeah, right. Oh, I just got goosebumps. How cool is that, right? Um, so anyway, um, but I, I, I think that scenario, what you, the way you just framed that is not unlike many stops in our journey, whether it's professional, personal or otherwise. Um, while that, that night, um, when I developed the principles, then of course the next day when I went on stage to share them with the team, Turned out to be one of the most important nights of my entire life.

[00:06:41] Kyle McDowell: I didn't realize it then, um, because it led me down a journey with this team at this organization where I've made lifelong friends. I haven't worked there, Nikki, in, uh, almost five years, and I still have one on ones. every four or six weeks with a few of the leaders with whom I was lucky to, to, to partner with, which is really unusual, right?

[00:07:03] Kyle McDowell: In big corporate America, when you're four or five years out from a company, you don't, you don't, you don't have a lot of interaction with the people that you worked with previously. At least in my journey, I have not until recently.

[00:07:13] Nikki La Croce: It's a lot of intention behind that.

[00:07:16] Kyle McDowell: Yeah, you're so true. And it takes, it takes both sides, obviously.

[00:07:19] Kyle McDowell: And, and I just happened to be connected with some really good people that, um, That were, I guess, tolerant in some ways of my approach to leadership, which is wildly different than many, um, unfortunately, but, um, but was certainly different than what they had seen the, the, the business results that we delivered were, were, um, really, really transformational, but that's not the story here.

[00:07:43] Kyle McDowell: The story is. the connections that we made. And I'll tell you, if you were to ask the question, the first question a little bit differently, like from a different perspective to say, Kyle, if it wasn't when you came up with these principles, when was it? Here's when I would tell you that, that there was this real intentional moment.

[00:07:58] Kyle McDowell: Um, so I was out of corporate America for about a year and, um, I had a non compete, so I couldn't go back into the industry that I'd left. Um, and, uh, I said, okay, I'm gonna write this book. So I took a year and a half to write this book and about 10 months into the writing process, I had to start coming up with a name.

[00:08:15] Kyle McDowell: And I reached out to people that I cared about and people that cared about me, especially those that I worked with, because they knew me in a way that some of my friends and family may not. And there was one conversation I'll never forget with a woman named Julia, who was a direct report of mine, who I'm still in touch with, who I think the world of.

[00:08:34] Kyle McDowell: We're. We're great friends. Um, I said, Hey, Julia, I'm thinking about naming the book. Begin with we, what do you think? And she said, that's the name. I said, we'll say more. She goes, that's what you did with us. When you came into the organization, you didn't come in to say I was going to do this, or you were going to do that.

[00:08:52] Kyle McDowell: Everything was about weed. That's what you did. What I tell you started this whole thing, Kyle, you began with we, that was a conversation that I'll never forget because that's, that for me was the moment was like, okay, my legacy and my impact. as it relates to this we stuff, um, is really, really important to me.

[00:09:08] Kyle McDowell: And it was so obvious in that conversation.

[00:09:10] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, I absolutely love that. And I like that you, um, reframed it that way. I think that's a great way of putting it, especially because. It is something where I emphasize a lot on this show, the value and the importance of introspection, the other side of that is, you know, what on, what is on the other side of introspection is connection, because in order to formulate those really important relationships in our lives, whether they're personal or professional or both, is this ability to know yourself well enough to understand what you're able to, you know, bring to the table, what other people can bring to the table that you can receive, and to be really able to integrate your lives with other, your life with other people.

[00:09:53] Nikki La Croce: And what I love that you just said that really, um, hones in on something that I'm so Enthusiastic about helping people with is building strong, sustainable support systems because there is no doing it alone. You can look at the most, I guess, you know, sort of categorically successful people, though, I would argue that I think success should be measured differently than money and status.

[00:10:16] Nikki La Croce: But you look at these people and it's like, even those people who are at the top, who have all the things. They didn't get there by themselves. There would be no way for them to get there entirely by themselves. So, who are the people that you're surrounding yourself with that play a role and help elevate you throughout the process?

[00:10:33] Nikki La Croce: Because, even just going through my own career, I mean, I graduated in 2008 when the economy had tanked with a film degree. I was like, what's my life? Um, and then, you know, it was, this one person giving me a chance and then this other person giving me a chance and then forming relationships with people who are then like, Hey, I'm going over here.

[00:10:53] Nikki La Croce: Do you want to join me over there? And so I think there's a lot of really valuable growth that can happen when we give ourselves the opportunity to not just, you know, kind of light the fire within a group when we're, we're in a certain circumstance, but to, as you've pointed out, really Cultivate and maintain those relationships over time when they feel right.

[00:11:15] Kyle McDowell: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Uh, beautifully summarized. And I would add to that, it, it makes, it makes it kind of a shame that, um, there's a need for my book and that there's a need for, for career coaching, executive co because, and, and, and if you, the reason why that's a shame is When you do make that connection with, um, business outcomes coming secondary to, uh, creating bonds and trusting relationships with those that you work every day.

[00:11:51] Kyle McDowell: Uh, if you, if you, if you prioritize it in, in the exact opposite order, like I'm gonna focus on the people, I'm gonna focus on my connection, I'm gonna focus on how authentic I can be to help people be better than they were yesterday, those business results come, but for whatever reason. And we can get into it or not.

[00:12:11] Kyle McDowell: Um, there are too many to probably even discuss at one setting people who, uh, kind of matriculate or graduate into a position of leadership or they promote into it or whatever the right scenario is. They lose sight of the value of those connections and the importance of those connections. And they become a box checker or someone that's trying to catch someone doing something versus, inspiring and motivating someone to be better than they were yesterday.

[00:12:38] Kyle McDowell: It's a shame. And I can say that with confidence because the first 20 plus years of my career, Nikki, I didn't think like that. It was about results and only results.

[00:12:47] Nikki La Croce: Okay. So I want to ask you something about

[00:12:49] Kyle McDowell: that.

[00:12:50] Nikki La Croce: Thank you for that honesty. Yeah, I really appreciate it. I also just wanna dip in and really quickly say nice use of the word matriculate.

[00:12:56] Nikki La Croce: I don't feel like it's used nearly often. , I'm like right on ding. Now it's there. It's in the, it's in the rotation for sure. Perfect. Uh, so thank you. Um, so one of the things that I was thinking as I was listening to you on another podcast was. You made a comment of being open to feedback and wondering, have you always been, you know, um, good at receiving feedback and taking personal accountability?

[00:13:25] Nikki La Croce: And if not, like, when did you start really recognizing that you wanted to lean more into that?

[00:13:31] Kyle McDowell: I think I've always been really good about personal accountability. I would, I would separate that from, uh, my ability to seek. And probably separate that from my ability to learn from and embrace feedback. Um, so I, I feel like when faced with feedback, I'm accountable, but what I, I don't think what I was good at, um, throughout the bulk of my career, certainly the first probably half, if not two thirds, was being open to feedback.

[00:14:02] Kyle McDowell: I didn't seek it. I didn't, um, I didn't, and when I got it, I think I would probably more often than not lean towards, they just don't get me or, you know, they don't understand or they're, you know, it's them. It's not me. It's not me at all. But there was a moment that, um, uh, later in my career, probably year 25.

[00:14:24] Kyle McDowell: I was up for this promotion and, um, I thought it was, I thought it was a shoe in for it. I didn't get the role. And I went back to the president, the guy that I was reporting to at the time who made the decision to hire someone else. And I said, Ted, you know, what could I have done differently? I just, any feedback would be helpful.

[00:14:40] Kyle McDowell: And at the time I should have mentioned this a moment ago, at the time, the business unit I was running was underperforming, a lot of good reasons why we had a correct, we had a get well plan that it wasn't a long term concern, but it wasn't great. You know, things were not great and he's, and I'll never forget, Ted said, Kyle, when we were going through the hiring process for your, for your now new boss, um, your division was not performing well.

[00:15:01] Kyle McDowell: And you never asked for help. You never raised your hand. You never asked for help. And I thought to myself at the time, I thought, well, no, I didn't ask for help because I needed to prove to you I could do this. I needed to prove to you that I was the man, I was able to fix this. What a shame. What an arrogant, egotistical reaction and what a shame.

[00:15:23] Nikki La Croce: Well, potentially, a shame in the moment, but also what a great opportunity to look back on it now and have the. ability to reflect on that and recognize that that was a really pivotal moment for you to recognize moving forward that you could change that.

[00:15:39] Kyle McDowell: I didn't realize it at the moment though. I mean, it took, no, no, I get that.

[00:15:42] Kyle McDowell: I get

[00:15:43] Nikki La Croce: that. I'm big. Damn it. It wasn't like a

[00:15:45] Kyle McDowell: month later. It was probably years later in hindsight now. Yeah. And yes, I guess I should be proud that I recognized it for what it was. But if you're ever in one of those rapid fire question and answer type sessions and someone says, uh, best advice you ever gave.

[00:16:01] Kyle McDowell: you were ever given. My, my response is almost always, don't be scared to ask for help. Um, and this back to the heart of the original question you asked, you know, about, uh, you know, introspection and, and no one does it alone. Um, obviously one is required for the other. I think you must have that introspection to realize that you can't do it alone, but.

[00:16:23] Kyle McDowell: Math says you can't do it alone. I mean, if you're doubtful, like math, like I always use this example. I'm a sports nerd. So, uh, I'll go with it. The NFL, an NFL team has 53 men on the active roster and one head coach. If he could do it all, there wouldn't be assistant coaches. There wouldn't be offensive coordinators.

[00:16:41] Kyle McDowell: There wouldn't be all these other coaches because one person cannot do it alone. Lead, inspire, motivate, coach, correct, critique, 53 different people. It's not possible to do it alone. Um, so anyone who's ever left to your point, however we quantify or even qualify success, anyone that sits in that kind of Mount Rushmore of anything, they'll be the first to tell you was not a, Not a soul, not a soul, not a solo journey, you know,

[00:17:06] Nikki La Croce: for sure.

[00:17:07] Nikki La Croce: And I, I appreciate the sports analogy because then there are a lot of people who can relate to that. I mean, I grew up playing sports and I think about, you know, even just, I was a goalkeeper when I played soccer and it's like, the coach that was better at, actually providing guidance as a goalkeeper was very instrumental in making our team function the way that it needed to function.

[00:17:27] Nikki La Croce: Right. Um, now granted, I was also like a little bit sort of, um, I feel like I was like a black sheep soccer player where I sort of like I do this because I can, um, I'm not super passionate about it, but I could jump high and I would, you know, throw my body to the ground to save a goal. But it was, I also had that coach say to me, you're great because you're athletic.

[00:17:46] Nikki La Croce: You'd be the best if you cared. And I think that's in terms of good advice.

[00:17:51] no one: Yes.

[00:17:52] Nikki La Croce: You know, it's weird that that's coming up right now, but I do actually think I mentioned this quite a lot in my life and it goes to show me the importance of having passion for what you're doing as well.

[00:18:02] Kyle McDowell: Everything.

[00:18:04] Kyle McDowell: Everything. And by the way, don't confuse. People can sometimes can confuse, uh, or conflate rather passion with liking to do something like, I want to be my best version of the best version of myself, physically, spiritually, emotionally. Uh, and that's a passion of mine, but the things I have to do. for that to be the case.

[00:18:28] Kyle McDowell: I don't like all of them. I don't enjoy them. Right. But I care about it though. You must care. I love, Hey, what, what, um, how old were you during that soccer story? When that coach said to you how you could be, if you cared, you remember?

[00:18:41] Nikki La Croce: Probably 16 or 17. So

[00:18:43] Kyle McDowell: not yesterday. Right. So it's been a while. And you still remember that conversation.

[00:18:47] Kyle McDowell: Right. You remember that. How important was that? Right. That it's funny. We've, we've, we've both bounced back and forth two or three different examples of things that people have said. And you mentioned this earlier, and I didn't dig back or push back on it. You said, you know, someone along your journey, uh, said, you know, why don't you come try this?

[00:19:04] Kyle McDowell: Oh, you're pretty good at that, right? And I bet, I bet you can put names with many of those somebodies if I were to, if we were to walk through those, right? That's true. Yeah. And how, and that's an opportunity that every one of us has. I just feel like because of my experience in, in, in kind of the path that I've taken throughout my journey on the planet, you know, mostly big corporate America.

[00:19:25] Kyle McDowell: Like connecting that obligation as a human to being a great leader is a really profound privilege that I think is, it's an obligation to, to do things like that. Tell someone that they can be better, do better, and you want to help them get there, get there.

[00:19:39] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Yeah. I really love that. And, you know, it's interesting too, because one of the things that, um, I, I really appreciate.

[00:19:47] Nikki La Croce: So your 10 principles, I heard you share them, um, on this other show and they really resonate a lot. I think that they're super important. I, I, I want you to share them if, um, if you're open to that, because I, I could easily dive into like, let's say one and then we'll talk about it and then that will go on and then we'll be here for 16 episodes.

[00:20:08] no one: Yeah.

[00:20:09] Nikki La Croce: So if you wouldn't mind kind of running through the principles and then I kind of want to make a broader. Question slash statement discussion around the idea of having these principles in general. Of

[00:20:20] Kyle McDowell: course. Yeah, yeah, of course. You bet. Um, quick context and then I will, I'll fly through them because I'm going to, in about 60 to 90 seconds, do what I sometimes do on stage in 60 to 90 minutes.

[00:20:31] Kyle McDowell: So, but, but I'll do it in a way that I think is, is helpful for your audience. So the principles are called the 10 wheeze. There are these sentences that I developed the night before I was meeting with these, this group of leaders that I mentioned earlier. And they became, um, they are, they are my identity in some ways.

[00:20:47] Kyle McDowell: Um, but they're certainly my. My, um, passion in another way. It's just funny. I use that word cause you went there a moment ago. Um, and, uh, I'm the first to admit they are not rocket science. As I begin, your audience is going to probably do some no shit, Kyle. Like, of course you want to be part of a team. And I introduced these principles, um, to a team and my, my, my kind of overarching comment was these are the rules.

[00:21:13] Kyle McDowell: And I used the word rules at the time, cause I didn't even call them principles at the time. Um, That govern a how we treat each other first, because I believe Nikki, when we're behind the scenes and we're high functioning, um, and we care about each other, the likelihood of us delivering externally, um, in, in very high performance faction, a fashion is, is exponentially greater.

[00:21:36] Kyle McDowell: Um, so that, that was the premise, uh, under which they were introduced.

[00:21:39] Nikki La Croce: And I completely agree with you on that. I'll just say, because the best performing teams I've ever been on have been the group of people that. Honestly, have such a diverse set of talents and personalities, but we're brought together with like the same desire to create value and understanding that, you know, we do all bring something different to the table.

[00:22:00] Nikki La Croce: So I just really want to point out that that is a very aligned statement for what I've witnessed in my life, but also what I truly believe as well. Right on.

[00:22:07] Kyle McDowell: That's, that's great to hear. And I think that's, that's great. That's what makes this so, uh, in my mind, beautiful, but also simple. But, um, the value is in living these principles and requiring those on your team to live them as well and calling them out, including the boss when he or she doesn't live them.

[00:22:23] Kyle McDowell: So number one, and this is where the, yeah, no shit Kyle comes in. Uh, we do the right thing always. It's we, number one, we do the right thing. Uh, number two, and you'll see that these kind of piggyback off one another and they, they kind of pick up where the former left off. Number two is we lead by example.

[00:22:41] Kyle McDowell: For me, the best way to do the right thing is to set an example. And that is an example that is worth replicating. We Um, it is an example that if it were published in the company newsletter or online or all over the internet, whatever, uh, you would be proud for that example to be set. Um, um, it's the example that your mother and my mother would be proud of, right?

[00:23:01] Kyle McDowell: That's exactly, that's what we're talking about. Cause we, we, we all set an example every day, all day. The question is, is it an example worth replicating? Um, but if I'm going to lead by example for me as a leader, or a great team member, I think, um, me making good on my commitments is the best thing I can do to set a great example.

[00:23:18] Kyle McDowell: And that's we, number three is we say what we're going to do, and then we do it. It's that simple. Um, and we call each other out when we don't, because that's really important. You know, big corporate America, people make, people make these commitments and then they don't deliver. And then this domino of, of, of failure begins.

[00:23:34] Kyle McDowell: So when we make commitment, we're going to deliver. Now, when we, when we say we're going to do something, we actually have, we have to actually do it. And that's we number four, we take action. I think in a lot of environments, especially in big corporate America, people see something that needs to be addressed, but because of either end up just in creating more work for them, um, or they might get reprimanded if it doesn't go well, they don't take that action.

[00:23:56] Kyle McDowell: I just, I feel like there's this TSA thing in the back of my brain. Every time I talk about this one, it's like, if you see something, do something we take action. Right. Um, but if we want our teams and the people on our team to feel comfortable. to take risks, to try to be innovative, maybe be a little, um, provocative in our thinking, we need to recognize that mistakes will be made.

[00:24:16] Kyle McDowell: So we number five is we own our mistakes. Um, the only way members of the team are going to own their mistakes is if they know they're in an environment where they're gonna get picked up. And that's Weed No. 6. We pick each other up. There's a caveat to Weed No. 6 as a leader of people, not just a leader within the organization, because you don't have to have a bunch of direct reports to be a leader.

[00:24:37] Kyle McDowell: But when you do have direct reports, there's an additional obligation for Weed No. 6. And that is you want to pick, we will pick our teammates up. to new heights. It's, it's, it's, it's not enough to just pick somebody up who's made a mistake or they stumbled. Uh, that's a requirement of the role, but if you really care about your team and you want them to be their best selves, whether it's on your team or somewhere else, you need to help them to their next job.

[00:25:00] Kyle McDowell: Um, help them. Uh, uh, just to new heights, whether it's personally, professionally, whatever. Now, uh, the first six weeds that we've touched on are, um, they're hard to disagree with, right? Um, now we get a little bit more kind of confrontational or inflammatory, but really needed. So, uh, weed number seven. We measure ourselves by outcomes, not activity.

[00:25:24] Kyle McDowell: Um, this is really important to me because, um, especially in big organizations, you know, there are a lot of interdependencies. I need, I need Nikki to help with this, but Nikki needs to go to accounting to get that, and there's this domino of things that needs to happen. Well, um, I'm glad Nikki scheduled a meeting with accounting.

[00:25:44] Kyle McDowell: But if she didn't deliver the thing that she agreed to deliver as part of her commitment to me, when we made a commitment to one another, then that activity is for naught. And, and this is most evidenced, I think in many people's lives and their organizations with meeting overload. We have a meeting to talk about the meeting and then let's debrief on that meeting.

[00:26:02] Kyle McDowell: Um, and then the meetings run long. And I just, I think we're over meeting in, in, in the corporate world. So I don't care about, about activity. I really don't. At the end of the day, consumers. and our clients pay for outcomes. That's a

[00:26:14] Nikki La Croce: really good

[00:26:14] Kyle McDowell: point. I love that my Uber driver puts gasoline in the car before he or she picked me up, but I didn't pay for that.

[00:26:20] Kyle McDowell: I paid for them to get me from A to B. That activity is important, but it's not, it's not, it's not why I'm paying. Um, okay. My favorite of all the We's is We number eight. So we challenge each other and there's a follow on one word sentence and it's diplomatically. And, uh, the rule for challenges is the challenge must be grounded in either data.

[00:26:41] Kyle McDowell: or experience. Can't be opinion. Uh, I, I feel we all have opinions and, and there's a cliche and a series of words that come behind that, that, um, is inappropriate for your audience. But if, if we want to be the best and we want to be proud of the work that we do and the legacy that we leave, um, it's important that we're in an environment where, The boss can be challenged, peer to peer, challenges are the norm.

[00:27:05] Kyle McDowell: Um, and then of course, from the team to the, to the leader, those, they must be part of our DNA. We just must challenge each other. Back to my sporting analogy earlier with the NFL, should one man, that coach of 53 men be the only one to allow, he's allowed to challenge those 53? Of course not. He can't be all places at all times.

[00:27:23] Kyle McDowell: We need challenges from one another. But challenge, uh, we number eight without we number nine is a recipe for anarchy or chaos. Uh, we eight is we challenge each other. We nine is we embrace challenge. So I know if Nikki, you come to me and you say, Kyle, Hey, we challenge each other, right? It is my obligation to listen to you because since we're on the same team and you've subscribed to these principles, I know the challenge that's about to come is, is grounded in data or experience.

[00:27:49] Kyle McDowell: You've thought about this and you're doing it. You're coming from a good place. We have to assume positive intention. Um, otherwise it's, it's just complaining. And once we've made it to we number nine, we're home free with we number 10. And that is we obsess over details. And I was purposeful to leave this one last because if we can get those first nine, right, Uh, the details are, are what will separate us from our competition.

[00:28:14] Kyle McDowell: They're what will make us great. We're going to, we're going to take just a second longer to QA our work. We're going to take just a second longer to make sure that everyone's had their, had their say in, in this important rollout of whatever the product is, the marketing, whatever. Everyone has a chance.

[00:28:28] Kyle McDowell: to be obsessive over those details. I really believe our clients judge us and our customers judge us. Uh, and they, they equate our obsession over the details with how much we care about their experience and the product we deliver. You can't, you can't separate the two in my mind. That's 10 weeks.

[00:28:45] Nikki La Croce: Thank you so much.

[00:28:45] Nikki La Croce: And you did that very beautifully in a very short amount of time. I fought every urge I had to comment on things. So that's also a testament to my ability to. to grow through this podcast. Um, my ADHD is like questions, questions, questions. So

[00:29:02] Kyle McDowell: it takes one to know one.

[00:29:05] Nikki La Croce: So I really appreciate that you start with do the right thing.

[00:29:10] Nikki La Croce: Always. This is something that in my experience, professionally in the tech sector, it I've done work at startups that are less than 10 people and I've worked at Amazon. So like I've run in mid sized businesses. So I've really run the gamut in my experience. And where things start to fall apart is when the motivating factor is not the right, doing the right thing.

[00:29:36] Nikki La Croce: It's doing the convenient thing. Which sometimes might also be the right thing, like if there's overlap, by all means, do those things that way, but doing the convenient thing, doing the thing that's going to appease board members, doing the thing that's going to insert, fill in the blank here, right? So I think that, that comes down to just really sort of a core value thing.

[00:29:55] Nikki La Croce: Also, there's an integrity to doing the right thing that needs to be established at the onset. So I feel like that makes total sense. And that I love the way that you've, um, written these out also that there is a flow to them in terms of, it's sort of a water. I say waterfall and then I'm immediately like, that's not the way you want to do tech work.

[00:30:15] Nikki La Croce: Like my agile brain is like just so like jigged in that direction. But so it, but it sort of waterfalls into, okay, this is the next principle. This is the next principle. And it makes sense. There's a seamless flow to it. And um, The other piece that really struck me too was, you know, when we say we're going to do something, we do it.

[00:30:35] Nikki La Croce: Okay. So when I was working at Amazon, one of the things that, because I've, I've been at other companies since that they're like, well, Amazon does this, we should do it that way. And I'm like, I actually would explicitly say, because I've been there and I've witnessed how kind of defective this product is.

[00:30:49] Nikki La Croce: process can be, that I wouldn't recommend that. I know that it's sort of touted as this big thing, that you write these PRFAQs. That you explain what you're going to do by writing a press release with a bunch of questions and answers to try to cultivate what the vision is and give people, like, your pitch.

[00:31:10] Nikki La Croce: Sure, maybe that's great in theory, but when you've written 36 drafts, So you can pander properly to leadership and you're not delivering the actual product. It's like, at what draft number do you feel that you actually understood what I was trying to convey where we could have stopped and started delivering value?

[00:31:33] Nikki La Croce: And it's like, there is this Amazon has, I think, 14 leadership principles, if I'm correct. Um, and What would happen is people would sort of anchor on them in in ways that I think are probably similar where like we challenge each other. Well, they have like have backbone disagree and commit and it's like well, So you're telling me sort of in the same breath like stand up for what you believe in but if like somebody shuts you down then just kind of shut up and do what you're told to do and so these principles would get weaponized instead of actually being used in a meaningful way.

[00:32:09] Nikki La Croce: I think there are certain times and certain principles that you could apply and say, sure, that makes sense. I feel, you know, like it, it works for the situation, but often what would happen is people would sort of leverage that as a way to justify maybe the poor decisions that they were making or the lack of information that they had to make those decisions.

[00:32:28] Nikki La Croce: And so what I think you do in the principles that you outline here is. because of the way that they flow, there's an accountability to the previous principle to then implement the next principle, right? And so there's a lot of intertwining these things in a way that creates a holistic approach where I feel a lot of companies sort of just slap things together.

[00:32:51] Nikki La Croce: They're like, this sounds good. We can motivate people around these things, but they're not practiced in totality. They're sort of practiced either one off or again, like kind of weaponized to make a point instead of actually being productive. So, um, that was the thing that came to mind as I was listening to you speak about these before.

[00:33:10] Nikki La Croce: And the other thing that I will say, cause the PRFAQ is sort of also around like, um, judging yourself by outcomes, not activity. Cause 36 drafts later, like we're clearly not using our time wisely, but I love the embracing the challenge because when you mentioned, if you're going to challenge somebody, you need to have data or experience.

[00:33:30] Nikki La Croce: The thing that was going on in my head was, okay, I agree with you that we absolutely, when possible, want to have data, because that's a much more useful way of conveying potential impact, whether that's an experience is sort of the anecdotal data, right? Um, and so I'm thinking, okay, is there a scenario in which I'm expressing my opinion and I feel like I want to challenge something.

[00:33:55] Nikki La Croce: But all I have right now is sort of my, my gut instinct or a feeling that I have. So is that rooted in anecdote and experience that I have? Or do I need to go look up something to then validate my opinion before I challenge you on it? So it's almost like you're kind of asking people to go a layer deeper before just sort of spouting off, well, I don't like that, or I think it should be this way instead of that way.

[00:34:20] Nikki La Croce: You're holding people accountable to the principle by saying, please come with these things. It doesn't have to be, if you don't have the numbers because the numbers don't exist yet or they're not relevant, that's fine. But then justify why your opinion is what it is. So at least we can have a meaningful discussion around that.

[00:34:35] Nikki La Croce: Was that sort of the thought with that?

[00:34:37] Kyle McDowell: 100%. And without knowing it, I think you, you, You validated it. You started your, you started the question talking about experiences at Amazon and how, um, there's this kind of reputation or this lore associated with it. And they say, well, this is how we do it at Amazon.

[00:34:55] Kyle McDowell: And you said this at the beginning of your, beginning of your question. Well, no, I actually worked there and I could tell you that that product that's experience. Yeah. Yeah. That is you, right. That is you saying, okay, I'm in this company now. And it's, it's the exact same example I use either on stage or in the book.

[00:35:09] Kyle McDowell: It's like, If, If. If, if we're in a team meeting and we're working towards, let's say a product launch, and someone on the team has launched a similar product at an, even at another organization, or even knows of someone that launched a similar product and they have experience that says we're heading down the wrong path, they are obligated to share that.

[00:35:29] Kyle McDowell: They're obligated. And we are obligated to listen because that's why we have the we of we embrace challenge. We must hear this person out. It's it's ego otherwise.

[00:35:39] Nikki La Croce: Well, yeah. And I like that you said that because you had mentioned something earlier, um, probably many minutes ago now, uh, around sort of like the way that leaders show up a lot of times.

[00:35:50] Nikki La Croce: Um, and unfortunately the reality, like you said, you know, having to even come up with this idea and bring it to a book and try to help coach people on this. But I do think that idea that it. It's the people who lead from a place of self serving rather than collective service that I feel in my experience struggle the most with that there's a sense of, you know, embracing the challenge.

[00:36:17] Nikki La Croce: Well, first of all, I think people who are very much egocentric are not going to embrace the challenge. They're going to shut down that shit as soon as they can.

[00:36:26] Kyle McDowell: That's right.

[00:36:26] Nikki La Croce: And because they

[00:36:27] Kyle McDowell: can, and because they can.

[00:36:30] Nikki La Croce: That's a really great point. That's a really great point because there is something to be said for the fact that a lot of organizations allow it, whether it's complacency, complicit, being complicit or what have you.

[00:36:41] Nikki La Croce: Um, but, you know, when you keep promoting people who have this mentality, calling them leaders and trying to get people to rally around them, when you've got a team of unhappy people who are conveying to you that they are unhappy and that this isn't working, like, to me, that's, that's a systemic issue that needs to be addressed at a more, um, level.

[00:37:00] Nikki La Croce: I almost said at a broader level, but in reality, it's like a more granular level. Like inspect that and look at it and ask yourself why that's a problem.

[00:37:07] Kyle McDowell: You nailed something that I, that I, I spend a lot of time on. Um, and you called it systemic, which it absolutely is. And here's, here's how it happens. So I'm going to make this up team of 10 people inside a big corporate America, right?

[00:37:21] Kyle McDowell: Uh, have a boss that nobody respects. They don't like working with him. Um, and, uh, They don't like his boss either. They don't like working with her. So he is a product of she, right? So she sets this temperature, sets the tone, and he's living it. Uh, making it play out in, in, in, in, in, and for his team, the team, it doesn't, the team doesn't resonate with them.

[00:37:48] Kyle McDowell: They're not excited about it, but guess what? He leaves to go work somewhere else. Now we have this group of 10, you know, a handful of those guys or gals are going to throw their hand up and say, I want that job. I want to get promoted. Right. It is, it is almost, um, inherent. in our, in our, and, and our, and the way that we think and operate that if we know that she is the hiring manager and we know how the guy that we didn't like, our boss, how he behaved, we are going to behave like that guy.

[00:38:21] Kyle McDowell: We are going to take on the attributes and characteristics of him that we loathed. Why? Because we want to endear ourselves to her, the woman who is making the hiring decision. And so the systemic cycle repeats over and over. That's it. Go ahead, please. No, no, please. You go. Well, and I was, the cycle will continue until someone says, and this is where I think I had a little bit of success and it was really out of my own.

[00:38:46] Kyle McDowell: And it wasn't some, it was me, me saying enough. I'm not going to lead this way. I'm not going to lead the way that I've been led. I want to be the leader I never had. It was more out of necessity for my own mental health and peace of mind in corporate America. Cause I had, I'm not, you know, I had great compensation, great title, led lots of people, you know, by all accounts was successful, uh, whatever that means.

[00:39:09] Kyle McDowell: But I was totally apathetic to the whole thing. I was like, I hated what I was doing. I was tired of all the bullshit and bureaucracy. And I said enough. And I like to think me saying enough led to people in my org also saying enough. So when they, uh, grow into a new, true leadership position, they lead differently.

[00:39:28] Kyle McDowell: But until someone does that, it ain't changing. It's your spot on right? It's not changing.

[00:39:34] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, I love that you went there. There's so much to unpack there. I agree with you. I've witnessed it firsthand. Um, I've kind of always been the person that's like, I'm not doing that. Like, I won't be a yes person. I just, it's not in, it's not in me.

[00:39:50] Nikki La Croce: And what I know to be true is that it's not in me. When I've been confronted with situations, um, the word that you used is exactly the word that I use, which is apathetic. It's like, I almost have to completely check out so I don't become emotionally attached to the stress of the situation being so just off base with what resonates with me from a core value level.

[00:40:13] Nikki La Croce: And when that happens, I'm basically like, I'm mentally ready to leave this job. I'm done. I don't care. And so it's like, once I wake up and that's the thing that's going through my head, I'm like, I'm miserable here. I hate it. Um, there's nothing that can be done to change it to your point. I think, you know, you get the right people in and they start to kind of adjust things.

[00:40:33] Nikki La Croce: But when you're at a company that is already really established, it's much harder. The benefit of being at Amazon with how many different areas of the business that they have there is that. You can have a good experience based on your leader and the people that they cultivate and strengthen around them.

[00:40:49] Nikki La Croce: But then you have what people called empire builders. And that was basically like, well, you're just going to bring up all the yes people that came along with you. And that for me, it's like, even thinking about it, I'm like, it, it just like, it, it rubs me the wrong way so much. And I think about how, like, there were moments where I was really considering trying to get a promotion.

[00:41:10] Nikki La Croce: And then I got to this point where I was like, I don't think I'm okay with compromising enough to get that promotion. I would rather leave and make less money than feel bound to something that like fundamentally doesn't feel right to me. And Much like you, like I had, I was very lucky and, and considering that I graduated with like absolutely no opportunity in front of me and fell into the tech space, it was like that was a real shift in the momentum of my career getting to Amazon.

[00:41:47] Nikki La Croce: Um, it gave me a lot more credibility, which I really appreciated, you know, from a resume standpoint, but it also really challenged me. With what am I willing to accept and where do I have to draw the line and I think professionally that can be a very, very difficult conversation to have with yourself because I've done it in relationships and that shit's hard too, but like when it's professional and your livelihood.

[00:42:12] Nikki La Croce: is reliant on that. You know, I've absolutely stayed in jobs because I needed the money. I've, of course, moved jobs because I needed the money also. But like, I've, I've stayed in a job unhappy because I'm like, I just need to do it. I just need to get it done. It's fine. But when you have, when you're feeling like you're actually fighting yourself on it constantly, something hits differently.

[00:42:37] Nikki La Croce: And I agree with you that you have to decide for yourself, like, am I going to Whether it's you're in that situation, you're going to step up and you're going to step into it. You're going to try to make it something else if you can and create that influence. Absolutely do that. But if it feels wrong and you're just sitting there going like, there's nothing I can do to make it feel right.

[00:42:56] Nikki La Croce: Then there is also a really important aspect of honoring, honoring yourself through that as well. Because I think so much of what I did in my corporate career was literally just a massive amount of self abandonment to like get to the next step. And you see a lot of people who are unsatisfied with.

[00:43:12] Nikki La Croce: where they're going because they don't feel connected to what they're actually doing, or to your point, the leaders who they're following there. Like, do I really, and I think you actually, um, decided to use a different, uh, choice phrase when you were on this podcast. I was listening to because you're maybe not a leader, a boss.

[00:43:31] Nikki La Croce: And that's the thing, right? Right. Is not every boss is a leader. That is a very distinct, important thing to note. And, and I had a lot of bosses, but I didn't have a lot of leaders.

[00:43:41] Kyle McDowell: Yeah. And you know, Nikki, therein lies the rub. Um, um, Eckhart Tolle, who I'm a big fan of, um, uh, wrote a book called The Power of Now.

[00:43:52] Kyle McDowell: And in that, he talks about when there are things that go wrong in your life. And it's certainly true in our, in our business lives, our work lives. You can either try to change it, you can change it. Get a lot, uh, try to change it, embrace it, or get away from it. And when we find ourselves in that situation in corporate America, and I want to be very clear about this, um, apathy, um, will lead to us coming to a fork in the road that says, I can either endure this or I can't.

[00:44:23] Kyle McDowell: and make a living at this place or I got to get out of it. If for those that make the decision to endure it and just keep their head down and be that yes person I have nothing but love for you. I get it. You got bills We have obligations and and for whatever whatever your scenario is if that is the decision that you've made To stay inside of an organization maybe reporting to someone who does not Respect what you do, doesn't bring the best out of you, is a boss, not a leader.

[00:44:53] Kyle McDowell: You're not wrong. You're not wrong. I get it. And I did it for a lot of years. Um, but I will also tell you, um, on the other side of that scary leap to go do something different. And it might mean, like you say, Nikki, you might have to take a pay cut. You might have to take a step back in, in, in your, in your kind of, matriculation through corporate America, you may have to.

[00:45:16] Kyle McDowell: Um, but on the other side of that, if you, if you, if you do, if you plan it right and it comes together in a way that I've been lucky enough to have it come together and I'm not alone in that. Many have as well. You, you seem to be in that same space as well. You found your, your, you found your path and what you're doing.

[00:45:34] Kyle McDowell: The fulfillment that comes from that so dwarfs the negative side of the garbage that you had to deal with when you were kind of just keeping your head down. But if you wonder why companies become stagnant or if you wonder why organizations get lapped or they have turnover problems or attracting problems, attracting great candidates, it's because of the stuff we're talking about, right?

[00:45:53] Kyle McDowell: This, the workforce becomes apathetic because there's a handful of people that behave in ways that are not, um, all that flattering and they don't inspire people. So, and you raise your hand once. They might listen to you, raise it twice. They don't listen to you. Why would you continue to raise your hand?

[00:46:08] Kyle McDowell: Put your head down, get your paycheck and go home. I don't begrudge anyone for doing that. It's just a, it's a shame that that has, it has to be that way in some organizations because the fulfillment and connections that come when the leaders actually act like they're on the team, not running the team, um, is, is a really beautiful thing to be a part of.

[00:46:26] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. And it's phenomenally different. Just the energy that's brought to a place where that is the case. You, you mentioned, um, early on the connections that you've kept with people from the organizations that you've been part of. And there are two ways that I've formed strong connections with people that I've worked with.

[00:46:46] Nikki La Croce: One of them is Misery Loves Company. And we're all bitching about the same things because we're miserable. And then there are the people who. Really believe that there is more than whether it's what you're doing there or, or just in your own potential and one of my best friends, um, that I worked at career builder with, I have to credit her with being kind of like my first adult friend out of college, you know, like, cause you're like, Oh my God, I made a friend.

[00:47:14] Nikki La Croce: It was, we weren't in like a forced social situation. We decided this, this is true. Um, and she recently left her. tech career as well, and is pursuing something that she's much more passionate about and helping bring more holistic wellness to people and companies and things like that. And it's because being on the inside, You see where there are gaps and you see where the pain points are.

[00:47:41] Nikki La Croce: And so when when you surround yourself with people who have maybe like at the time like we bitched about it We complained about it. We were upset that life was unfair for us at that moment But we kept moving forward with the intention of not always being there. Yeah And that really strengthened the bond that we have because it was far more than just professional.

[00:48:02] Nikki La Croce: But I think especially because it gave us a sense of accountability, um, to ourselves, to also be sharing in the experiences that we were having. to propel us out of these circumstances that we didn't want to stay in. And so it's sort of like, you've got somebody, I mean, it's, it's the whole idea of like, pick each other up.

[00:48:22] Nikki La Croce: Right.

[00:48:23] no one: Yeah.

[00:48:23] Nikki La Croce: So it's like, we're not working at the same place, but we both have a desire to leave these situations that don't feel right to us. So how can I help you? What can you do to help me? Knowing that you can ask for help, as you said, at the beginning of all of it. And it's like, so even though I can look at a lot of my work experience, and kind of be like, Ooh, that wasn't great.

[00:48:41] Nikki La Croce: There are bits and pieces that come out of it and relationships that are just so strong and consistent throughout those experiences that I think in a lot of ways transform us. Um, but we don't necessarily see how significant it is until you're in a situation where sort of all of the, like kind of the, the static clears and you're like, Oh, like it was a mess while I was in it.

[00:49:07] Nikki La Croce: And I hated that. But we bonded over stuff and then we had these deep conversations and, you know, when you were deciding that you were going to leave, I was also talking about what I was doing. And so you really start to, um, create more of that ecosystem that you want. And to the point, you know, You can actually find ways to collaborate with people doing the things that you care about.

[00:49:31] Nikki La Croce: So that leap is terrifying. Like I'm with you a hundred percent. And it's like, are you going to just let it continue to be, or are you going to like, you know, kind of brace for impact and then get through it? And I think there's a time where you're going to realize that. You're, you'd rather be uncomfortable, even if it's more, seemingly more discomfort for a brief amount of time than just continue to wake up every day feeling like you hate your life.

[00:49:56] Kyle McDowell: Be miserable. Right. Right. Imagine this though. Imagine a world where, uh, what was the role, what was your, if you're comfortable sharing, what was the job you had when you two bonded? Like what were you guys doing at the time?

[00:50:11] Nikki La Croce: Um, so I was a product manager and she was an engagement manager. So she was dealing with the customer side of the product that I was building.

[00:50:19] Kyle McDowell: Okay. And what, you know, what were the top two or three things that you really disliked about that job?

[00:50:26] Nikki La Croce: The bureaucracy. There were a lot of decisions being made that were seemingly on a whim. Okay. And so we were very up front with where the customers were using the product and aware of what they were doing and just weren't really being listened to.

[00:50:39] no one: Okay.

[00:50:39] Nikki La Croce: And, um, I'd say the other thing was that it didn't feel like we had a voice, even though we had the knowledge that we needed to make meaningful changes that would have actually helped propel the company forward more.

[00:50:53] Kyle McDowell: Got it. Okay. Um, and I assume you took that role knowing regardless of how good or bad or how much you loved it or hated that job, you took that job knowing that it wasn't the be all end all.

[00:51:05] Kyle McDowell: It was a stepping stone to something else. You might not even know what it was, but you knew it was, it was a step, right? It was part of your path.

[00:51:10] Nikki La Croce: Even literally, even literally when I took the job, it was, different than what I, it ended up actually being because of how new the position was. I thought I was getting hired for marketing and it was like, no, you're actually doing product.

[00:51:20] Nikki La Croce: And I was like, okay, that's fine. I have money. Like I just, and it wasn't a lot of money at the time, but I could pay my rent, you know? So it was, it was a means to an end. It

[00:51:28] Kyle McDowell: was a means to, and you knew that, right? You knew it was, it's like, And that's the difference. And I'm going somewhere with this.

[00:51:34] Kyle McDowell: That's the difference between a job and a career, which is, I've had plenty of, one of my favorite jobs, my whole life was when I was 17 years old selling shoes. I worked at like a Foot Locker. Um, I didn't love it at the time, but looking back, of course, but imagine a world here's where I get a little bit, maybe unicorns and rainbows and people might not follow me, but imagine a world where you can go to your boss or leader, ideally a leader in that scenario.

[00:52:01] Kyle McDowell: And you can say, Listen, this ain't the be all end all for me. I, I, I don't like this job. Um, I, I know that I'm, I have my eyes set on something else either within this company or elsewhere. And imagine when the leader were to say, got it. I know you're not going to be here forever, but I want you to be the best you can be while you're here.

[00:52:24] Kyle McDowell: I want you to fucking crush this job. I want you to be really good at it. Why? Because I know it will better prepare you for the next role. Also, also, and, and just as important because I have needs too. We're in this relationship. I have needs too. I need our team to deliver X, Y, and Z and be really excellent.

[00:52:41] Kyle McDowell: I need this team to be great because it's a reflection of how I lead. It's, it is my job performance criteria, right? So I want you to be your best knowing that you may not even be here a year from now. As a matter of fact, if you're here a year from now and you have your eyes on something else, I will help you get that job.

[00:52:56] Kyle McDowell: But let's, let's have a handshake agreement now that knowing that this isn't going to last forever. And that's okay. Because I'm not going to be in this job forever either.

[00:53:02] Nikki La Croce: Right. Well, that's an interesting point too, because a lot of leaders or bosses act like, you know, they're, they're there for the long haul.

[00:53:09] Nikki La Croce: And then like two weeks later, they're gone. And you're like, wait a second, what just happened, right?

[00:53:12] Kyle McDowell: Yeah. The spirit, the spirit of this, of this fairytale is I think if we're open, like I get pushed back sometimes cause I get on these high horses about, you know, having an impact and being fulfilled. And, and I had a follower once reach out, um, or it was in the comments or something like I serve, I flip burgers.

[00:53:30] Kyle McDowell: Where's the fulfillment in that? Great, great question. Great point. To me, the answer is the leader of that shift crew of that team needs to make sure that those people on the team, uh, are at their absolute best in the role that they're in. Not because Uh, it's a requirement of the job, but because it will better position them for their next role, which will better position them for their next role.

[00:53:52] Kyle McDowell: Let's stop pretending that you're going to be here for 30 years. I know you're not going to be here for 30 years, but while you're here, you will be better off if you perform well, because the next job will become more obvious to you. You'll be more, you'll be more marketable, whatever. I perform well because our team is performing well.

[00:54:08] Kyle McDowell: I just think like, you know, we don't recognize that. You know, someone who is earning just above minimum wage, um, like just because that's not going to be their career, which it shouldn't be, they still have value to add. And as their boss or as their leader, you should want that value to be part of their goal every single day for their benefit.

[00:54:29] Kyle McDowell: And oh, by the way, you benefit because the team performs well. I just think if we were to approach those conversations at all levels of leadership, um, We would all be better off for it. We'd stop lying to ourselves and hiding, you know, how many, nobody's a company man or company woman anymore. Right. We are as, we are as open to new opportunities as, as we've ever been.

[00:54:53] Kyle McDowell: Right. So let's not, that is fact, right. Let's not, let's not like create this fairytale expectation that, you know, Ward and June Cleaver in the sixties, when everybody worked at the same place for 30 and 40, it doesn't happen anymore. So while you're there, you're The goal should be to get the most, like I tell people, I have a small business that I'm a part of here, uh, in Tampa.

[00:55:11] Kyle McDowell: And I tell people on that team, if you're not here for years and you want to go do something else, you have a side hustle you want to grow. I will help you with that. But in return, I need you to give your best while you're here and everybody wins. So let's just be open about it.

[00:55:26] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Well, I love that you, you made the comment about people not being like a company person anymore, because it's like, don't act like you're not on LinkedIn saying yes, if a recruiter asks, if you want to have a chat, because it would be, it would be honestly, probably a disadvantage to not say yes, at the very least to have the conversation.

[00:55:44] Nikki La Croce: Like I, I really. The only times that I wouldn't entertain a recruiter conversation when I was still in tech was if I genuinely felt like I was in an okay place where I wasn't trying to actively leave the company that I was at. And it was just sort of like, yeah, probably honestly, when I had just started.

[00:56:01] no one: I'm

[00:56:03] Nikki La Croce: like, I didn't, I didn't have a reason to leave yet. Um, but I think that, you know, It was always interesting to me to just kind of see what other people were thinking or how other people maybe saw my skill set because it is an eye opening thing to hear you talk about this person making the comment about flipping burgers and really thinking about, wow, yeah, you know, I've worked in service jobs before and I feel like, like customer facing service jobs.

[00:56:30] Nikki La Croce: And I feel like It was really punch the clock. Get me out of here. Like, I don't really need to feel motivated. I'm just doing that. And it's because all of the people around you sort of operate that way as well.

[00:56:42] Kyle McDowell: And where does that come from? And so you

[00:56:43] Nikki La Croce: feed off of that. Yeah. And

[00:56:46] Kyle McDowell: at least one person has the opportunity to set the temperature for that team.

[00:56:49] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:56:49] Kyle McDowell: Right. Look, I think Because let's, uh, this, this is going to maybe a little crass and I hopefully I don't offend, but it's probable that the, the, the shift leader is also not in it for the next 20 years. Like they are looking for their next step. So we all benefit if we all kill it in the role that we're in now, we can all move up and out.

[00:57:09] Kyle McDowell: So it's, um. Yeah. That openness is so sorely missing, but you know, there's a lack of authenticity in a lot of organizations. And so, so why would you be that vulnerable to share that?

[00:57:21] Nikki La Croce: Well, I think you just hit the nail on the head with that is that it is extremely vulnerable to be honest about where you're at.

[00:57:26] Nikki La Croce: And it does make me think about, um, this job that I had at Amazon. It might've, I can't remember now, it might've been my first year, year and a half there. And I had a team that I really loved, um, a boss that I really liked at the time, but then in retrospect realized like he wasn't really maybe doing as much as I thought he was, but he had a good energy that like helped kind of keep the team, you know, shielded from some of the bullshit.

[00:57:53] Nikki La Croce: And, um, the moment that I kind of realized, okay, I thought you were a really great leader. Um, maybe in some ways he was, I had to keep coming back with the same, this is a problem. This is a problem. This is a problem in the way that we're operating the way that I'm feeling about things. And it was like, I'm going to leave.

[00:58:17] Nikki La Croce: And it's like, but there's nothing really being done. And it's like, okay, so effectively, I feel like I'm being told. I do or I don't have value in this situation if nothing's being done to change it. Um, and again, that's like an internalization, whether or not that's really true or not. It's what somebody else does with the information, but it was this feeling of, okay, how much more energy can I put into caring and trying to motivate the people around me when I feel like nothing I'm doing is being heard or expanded on for me to grow.

[00:58:46] Nikki La Croce: And so it was interesting because one of my best friends. Mel, who, um, she and I have just such a close bond. She is somebody that I started working with really early on in my role at Amazon. And, um, She said, you know, I remember like the first meeting that we were in together and I didn't know you and you were just like so passionate and I just felt so inspired by what you were saying and then it's like, by the end of it, I was like, fuck this place, like, fuck it, I want to go.

[00:59:14] Nikki La Croce: And, and, and so it's like, that was the erosion of just constant either like, you know, getting shot down, not seeing activity turn into outcomes, like all that stuff. And so it's like, you can start with the best of intentions too. And I really wonder how many people who are in these leadership positions started with the right intention, the right motivation.

[00:59:35] Nikki La Croce: And they're just like, I can't fucking do it anymore. Whatever. Yes. Fine. Yeah.

[00:59:39] Kyle McDowell: Yeah. But why, but why did they come to that conclusion? Why would the leader come to that conclusion? Because of their leader.

[00:59:44] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, totally.

[00:59:45] Kyle McDowell: And it's systemic to your point earlier. It's systemic. And that's where like, I, I, um, I say this, um, um, we, I think every single person on the planet that enters the workforce enters the workforce with optimism, with passion, they want to make a difference.

[01:00:03] Kyle McDowell: They want to have an impact. And over time, and I was, I'll speak for me over time, All of those beautiful, um, uh, are those adjectives I just listed? Yeah, I guess those are adjectives. Um, they, we lose them over time for whatever reason. Um, some of it is just, just comes with age. Like you realize maybe this, the, the silver linings around certain things are not quite what they really are.

[01:00:32] Kyle McDowell: You know, you have this idyllic view of the corporate world or, you know, when I get this title, things will be this way. Okay. But that optimism and the passion, uh, they all, they all fade. And that's when, and I was there and I was there very, very strongly. It cost me a marriage. It cost me, uh, my health. I got really unhealthy for a while.

[01:00:50] Kyle McDowell: And then that's when I had that moment I shared earlier. I was like enough. Um, but it's so easy to see how this happens. It's so easy to see how it happens, but you know, I'm here to tell you it does not have to be that way. Now, that does not mean we spring out of bed every morning, you know, with unicorns and rainbows and this, you know, music playing and it's not, that's, it's called work.

[01:01:10] Kyle McDowell: It's not called fun, right? I mean, they're like everything else we talked about this earlier. It comes at a price. You must. put in the work, have the discipline to do these things that provide opportunities to make money, to go do something else, to take vacations, to take care of your friends and family, those types of things.

[01:01:27] Kyle McDowell: But it just, it doesn't, the Sunday scaries don't have to be a thing. They don't have to be a thing, at least not every Sunday.

[01:01:34] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's very true. Well, I do think that it's unrealistic to think that we don't have any, you know, stressors or conflict or whatever. And I, and I think that what you, um, touch on with the idea of challenging each other in the principles is that conflict is inevitable, like that will arise.

[01:01:50] Nikki La Croce: That's the reality of humanity. So how is it that you actually approach things with intentionality, with, um, as you said, So what diplomacy really not just looking at and saying, Oh, these are the 10 principles. And so this is what I need to do. It's like, how do you embody that? How do you actually show up and make sure that that's part of what is translating into the way you're working, the company culture, the, the, uh, the output of what all of that is to ultimately generate, you know, revenue for the business or a following or whatever it is that people are seeking.

[01:02:24] Nikki La Croce: And I, I think that, um, one of the things that you had said also in, uh, something else I had watched was that you were flattered that you were challenged by somebody at one point who thought like you had plagiarized something. Like when, was this at the first company that you were speaking about?

[01:02:41] Kyle McDowell: Yeah. He

[01:02:41] Nikki La Croce: kind of like approached you and said, I didn't think that that was legit.

[01:02:45] Kyle McDowell: Yep. True story. Um, so he was in the crowd, part of the group that was, uh, that first 40 or 50 leaders that, um, the first time I ever talked about the 10 wheeze and, um, He admitted that he, um, he Googled the tin wheeze while I was speaking to see if I had stolen them, but it got worse, Nikki. We, um, it was either that night at dinner and it could have, it could have been a week later or a day later, but, um, true story.

[01:03:10] Kyle McDowell: Just don't remember exactly how much longer it happened or later it happened. Um, we were at dinner and his name is Nick. He knows I tell the story. Um. he asked for the PowerPoint that I used. He wanted the actual file. And I was like, sure, Nick, no problem. Send it to him. And he later admitted that he wanted the PowerPoint because he wanted to check the properties to see if I was the creator of the document or was it somebody else's name there?

[01:03:36] Kyle McDowell: Yep. True story.

[01:03:37] Nikki La Croce: Well, that's a commitment in and of itself.

[01:03:40] Kyle McDowell: Respect, right? Respect. I, I respected that he was open enough to tell me.

[01:03:45] Nikki La Croce: Yes, for sure. I mean, The fact that he was open, open enough also indicates that he felt like he could approach you about it. And the fact that he felt like he needed to do that.

[01:03:57] Nikki La Croce: I mean, I can totally get it because I think that there, what we've discussed is there is an element of distrust with, within businesses when you feel like there's either constant turnover or like inconsistency in the way that things are operating, you don't feel heard. So it's really interesting to see how, you know, You're coming up with these 10 principles.

[01:04:20] Nikki La Croce: You walk in, you're like, Oh, I have this realization. Like, I can't make it about I have to make it about we share this. This guy's like, no, I don't buy it. That's not, that's not, that's not real. And it's like, but then he turns around and says, you know what? Good on you. Thanks for doing that. Because I was, I was wrong.

[01:04:39] Nikki La Croce: So it's kind of a really complimentary scenario, despite maybe what might've been seen initially as like a, really? Thanks for that.

[01:04:48] Kyle McDowell: Yeah. Great observation. I'll, I'll share two, two quick, uh, responses to that. Um, I guess the bow on that present of that story. is Nick, uh, with Nick is, I asked one person to write a page in my book.

[01:05:03] Kyle McDowell: Um, and it was Nick. I've stayed in touch with this guy since 2017. We had a call. I spoke, we haven't worked together in five, several years. I spoke to him just maybe a week or two ago. And the story that he tells in my book are about a 10 million mistake that he made. So this was after, this was years to a year or two after the whole.

[01:05:26] Kyle McDowell: I don't believe this is you. Give me the PowerPoint Kyle. Um, and I think I'm sharing this because the, I think the commentary of this relationship is he started so skeptical and he is in the chapter for we own our mistakes because Nick and his team made a 10 million mistake. Um, they came to me, um, and owned the mistake.

[01:05:48] Kyle McDowell: And created a, he called me, the story goes, he called me that evening that they discovered the mistake. Um, almost convinced that his employment was going to be, was going to be ending because it was a massive mistake. Um, and I honestly, Nikki, to this day, I don't remember the comp, the phone call. And we joke about that.

[01:06:05] Kyle McDowell: And he says, and it's in the book, he says, um, that I, reassured me was the right guy for the job. Um, let's not, let's make sure it doesn't happen again. Proved to me it doesn't happen again. Like they created these QA checks and so on, but I think it's a neat story because he started so skeptical. And by the way, when I left this company, I went to another organization.

[01:06:24] Kyle McDowell: He followed me there. Uh, we had a leadership role there and he's still at that same company. But the other story I wanted to share with you, allow me, I think is really, really, uh, poetic. When I first rolled the principles out, there was one person in particular who was really, really obstinate and convinced that I was just full of shit.

[01:06:42] Kyle McDowell: She challenged me at every corner. Um, she was a direct report of mine and nearly every ask I made of her As her boss, uh, was met with attitude delays, just obstinate. She was, she was a jerk. Um, but for whatever reason, I knew I had to tolerate that and embrace her challenges of me because when she was being a jerk to me, I could have done what 99 out of a hundred bosses would do.

[01:07:15] Kyle McDowell: Bang my fit on the, my fist on the desk, damn it, Julia, get me this reporter, you know, whatever. Cause like we said earlier. I can, as the boss, I can, but I knew if I, and I'm not that smart, but at the time I realized if I didn't live my own principles, I was a hypocrite. The whole thing is a house of cards. I knew if I reacted to her challenging me the way that she was in the way that I wanted to react, because I'm human.

[01:07:43] Kyle McDowell: We wouldn't be talking today because those principles would never have resonated the way that they did. Those principles are still on their annual performance reviews. They have the 10 WE awards, uh, two or three times a year. Um, they, they give out these WE bracelets that I still wear nonstop. Um, it's, it's part of their cultural DNA now, and none of that would have happened if I would have just said, Damn it, Julia, stop being a jerk the way I wanted to.

[01:08:11] Kyle McDowell: I had to take my own medicine and embrace the challenge she gave me. She, by the way, is one of my closest work friends. Um, to date, I think the world of her. I was going to

[01:08:21] Nikki La Croce: ask if that was the Julia you mentioned at the beginning of the conversation.

[01:08:25] Kyle McDowell: Same one. That's too funny. Hey man, it's worth mentioning when I met her, uh, she had a team of about 200 people that reported to her, maybe a little bit less.

[01:08:33] Kyle McDowell: She has, uh, 15, 000 people reporting to her now.

[01:08:37] Nikki La Croce: Wow. I don't even know what to do with that.

[01:08:40] Kyle McDowell: Well, and parenthetically, she had me back to give a speech at her company. It's been over a year now. And when she introduced me to the crowd, she was like, a lot of you guys don't know this, but me and this next speaker did not get along at all.

[01:08:52] Kyle McDowell: Like we were water and oil, but we were both mature enough to see that we had, we could learn from each other and grow from each other. And we have, and I still learn and grow from her. And I think she does as well. It's my favorite story to tell because what started as A very skeptical Julia about some guy in some shiny shoes and a stark shirt, uh, uh, and her skepticism of me have turned into a, I think a lifelong friendship.

[01:09:14] Kyle McDowell: It's really cool.

[01:09:14] Nikki La Croce: Wow. That's such an amazing way to cap the episode. I think Kyle, I mean, I could definitely talk to you for many, many more hours, um, but I really love that because it just touches so beautifully on the power of. Both introspection and connection because you had the self awareness to acknowledge what you needed to do in that situation to honor yourself and the principles and the people you were working with and look at this amazing lifelong relationship that has come from that integrity and that honesty and that openness in that relationship.

[01:09:47] Nikki La Croce: Like what an absolute gift.

[01:09:49] Kyle McDowell: Yeah, I feel very fortunate. I feel fortunate for my relationship with Julia and I feel fortunate for having spent the last hour plus with you.

[01:09:56] Nikki La Croce: Thank you so much Kyle. This has been absolutely amazing. Um, So people can find more about you and the work that you're doing at kylemcdowellinc.

[01:10:06] Nikki La Croce: com. Is there anywhere you'd like them to find or follow you elsewhere?

[01:10:10] Kyle McDowell: Yeah, I mean, pretty much all social platforms, same handle at kylemcdowellinc. The book is Begin With We. It's available worldwide. Amazon's probably the easiest place to get it. And I'm probably not your normal guest where I just throw those social media handles out and just hope for a follow.

[01:10:25] Kyle McDowell: Follows are great. But I want to interact. Um, so feel free if there are, if anything that you and I have talked about today, uh, resonates or, or confuses, whatever the right reaction is for you. And I would love to hear from you. Um, and if there's anything I can do to help folks on their journey, I'm, I'm, I'm legitimately and genuinely open.

[01:10:46] Kyle McDowell: open to those opportunities and we look forward to hearing from you.

[01:10:48] Nikki La Croce: That's amazing. Well, gang, you absolutely should engage with Kyle because this has been a super fun conversation. Very insightful and very meaningful. And that's all for this episode. We'll catch you on the flip side. Gang, thanks so much for joining me for this week's episode.

[01:11:02] Nikki La Croce: I just appreciate your support and it means so much to me that you tune in week after week. The best thing that you can do to help spread the word about the podcast is if this episode resonated with you, go ahead and share it with somebody else wherever you listen to your podcasts, or you can go ahead and subscribe to my YouTube channel and share it from there.

[01:11:19] Nikki La Croce: I also really appreciate it if you can leave a review on Apple Podcasts because that really helps give people a better understanding of what the show's about and what you appreciate about the conversations that we're having. And until then, I'll catch you on the flip side.