Understanding Injustice, Creating Change

[00:00:00] Nikki La Croce: Maybe it's, it's like sort of a tragic flaw and also like a very important factor of humanity that like we want to believe that we can have the control, but like we definitely don't.

[00:00:09] Brig Feltus: We definitely do not have control of everything. Right. You know, I don't know that I really want to. It's kind of stressful, you know, as, as a mom.

[00:00:19] Brig Feltus: As a human. The thing I have to keep reminding myself is, That's a whole human being over there. Yes, this is my son, but that's a, he has like a whole perspective in life and ways of being that have nothing to

[00:00:34] Nikki La Croce: do with me. I love that you said that, Bridge, because, you know, something that I was just saying to one of my friends, like a lifelong friend of mine, we were talking the other day, And I said, you know, it's just like, we didn't see our parents, you know, in, in this other environment, we saw them as our parents and that's who they were.

[00:00:51] Nikki La Croce: And after losing my mom, there was just like, you know, I, I always knew she had this life before us, right? It's, you know, that, um, but there were three, Two things that really came up and one was that like, my dad was so much more open about talking about like their relationship and how it came to be and all these things after the fact.

[00:01:09] Nikki La Croce: But also my mom had this very sort of strict sense of she would say it was like, BLBK, before Len, my dad, and before me. And I, this part of me is disappointed, but she was, you know, she's a boomer. So I feel like there, there's this sort of sense of, I need to keep things close to the vest. And as,

[00:01:31] Brig Feltus: as well, yeah, I mean, boomers had the seventies.

[00:01:34] Nikki La Croce: Right?

[00:01:35] Brig Feltus: Well,

[00:01:36] Nikki La Croce: that's it. And here's the thing. My mom lived in Manhattan in the 70s. She like worked for radio. She lived a life,

[00:01:43] Brig Feltus: but she's like, that's none of your business. A

[00:01:46] Nikki La Croce: hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I, and I feel like there's this part of me that's like, damn it, Deb. Like, I want to know. And one of the things that I, I feel like Because I don't have children, I, there's this part of me that's like, I can understand you wanting to sort of preserve that in, in your own memory and, and hold on to that and be like, that is like part of my identity that, you know, wasn't about you.

[00:02:09] Nikki La Croce: But then there's this other part of me that's like, Oh, I feel like I could have related to you in a lot of ways that you, you didn't open the door to those things. And so I, what I love about kind of witnessing the way that, you know, my friends are parenting and my friends who are Gen Xers are parenting is.

[00:02:25] Nikki La Croce: There's sort of this, what you're speaking to, right? It's like sort of the identification of like, these are, there's all these things that are happening in your own world. They're not mine to control or to, to perceive a certain way. But I think there's real value in the transparency that a lot of us desire to have without there being the expectation of like, you need to know this or not.

[00:02:45] Nikki La Croce: It's like, but you have the freedom to share it if you wish to and cultivating this environment of non judgment and just sort of, you know, sharing from a place of, of, of truth and, and that like, you are not just my parent, you are not just my child. Like, let's go there within the bounds of what feels comfortable and appropriate.

[00:03:06] Brig Feltus: Right. Um, and you have no control over that either.

[00:03:13] Nikki La Croce: This is the episode, right? This is the episode. And I think that this is,

[00:03:17] Brig Feltus: we have no control.

[00:03:18] Nikki La Croce: And what I love about it. is that there is freedom in that. And it makes me think, because you mentioned that having a child thing is, I remember my sister, like, I always felt like she was, she definitely was the more cautious and like, I would say more uptight one of the two of us.

[00:03:36] Nikki La Croce: Um, but when she had kids, I felt like she was going to be like crazy neurotic and like annoying the heck out of me. And she became a lot chiller. And she's like, Nikki, I just realized that, like, There's not much I can do about it. You know, like she's going to parent the best she can.

[00:03:52] Brig Feltus: Until she has more than one.

[00:03:54] Nikki La Croce: She does. She has two, but you know, weirdly it did happen. I, well, actually, you know what? Great question. I, it might, it might've been, it might've been when, right after she had had my nephew. So it might've been like shortly after having the second, but I think it was this realization.

[00:04:10] Brig Feltus: Yeah.

[00:04:11] Nikki La Croce: Cause they're going to do what they're going to do.

[00:04:12] Nikki La Croce: I'm a second child. So I feel that.

[00:04:15] Brig Feltus: Oh yeah, and the thing about parenting, you know, you're a, you were a child before you were a parent. So, um, when I think about my parenting, um, I know that very early on, as soon as I found out I was pregnant. I started thinking about all the things my parents did that I was not going to do.

[00:04:37] Brig Feltus: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I bet. And all the things I was going to do better than them. So arrogant. So arrogant. And that's just an, it's unhealed trauma. You know, that's all that is.

[00:04:51] Nikki La Croce: Well, cause you don't know until you're in that position too, right? My mom would say stuff like that too. They'd be like, you don't know.

[00:04:56] Nikki La Croce: You like to believe that you would be that way, but you don't know. Absolutely.

[00:04:59] Brig Feltus: Absolutely. And it doesn't matter that, you know, I have a, probably more education than they had, um, more worldly experiences than they've had. I'm a lot more liberal than they are. And at the same time, um, and in terms of, you know, how to raise a child in some ways.

[00:05:22] Brig Feltus: Um, I have to be more conservative because the times are different, you know, we got to play in the street and we knew all the kids in the neighborhood and, you know, so there was a lot, a lot of differences between my childhood and, the way my son was raised.

[00:05:39] Nikki La Croce: And can I ask you, your, your son's a little bit older, right?

[00:05:41] Nikki La Croce: Like how old is he? He's 20,

[00:05:44] Brig Feltus: how old is he?

[00:05:45] Nikki La Croce: He just turned 27. Okay. Yeah. So, and it's interesting cause he's like just at the, he's like, like year one of Gen Z, right? Like something in those lines. Um, yeah. And what I, I love that you just said, because I think it actually really creates such an organic segue into the nature of the conversation we had had when we first spoken around like that need to get back to a sense of community and that need to come back to a place of, you know, not just who am I in my own existence, but like, who are we in the context of the world in which we live?

[00:06:17] Nikki La Croce: And how are we building that world around us so that we can thrive? as a community and together and bring more wholeness to all of us. So, um, I'd love it if you could like share a little bit about how, um, you know, your desire, you know, whether it's like as a parent or what you've done with, um, The intersection, I'm going to, I'm going to butcher this, the intersection for mankind, uh, you know, like having the, these opportunities to like really try to cultivate community have been important to you.

[00:06:49] Nikki La Croce: I loved that that's where you led from in our original conversation. So can you share a little bit about like why community, why you feel community is so important and why it's so important to you?

[00:07:00] Brig Feltus: Oh my gosh. That's the most loaded

[00:07:02] Nikki La Croce: question I can ask you. Right out of the gate bridge.

[00:07:06] Brig Feltus: Yeah. I mean, my lineages come from, um, indigenous Americans and African people.

[00:07:15] Brig Feltus: And Both cultures are built around community, and this idea that a nuclear family is the way to go is about industrialism and capitalism, nothing else. So you should move away, you should, um, start a new life because you're more educated than the people you left behind, because You've got to dedicate all of your time to your work and you need a nanny and you need a, you know, just all these things, right?

[00:07:51] Brig Feltus: In order to make a life for yourself and your children. But there's something very much lost in that. And when you need, I mean, this is very basic for me. Like when I, when my, when my son was young and I, Might get sick or have a down time. You know, we all have times when we feel down or defeated or, you know, we're just having a rough time sometimes.

[00:08:20] Brig Feltus: Um, to have family nearby is important. When I was pregnant, I was living in Germany. Oh, wow. And where, um, I had, my uncle was there and my, uh, my cousins were there, but they had their own lives and. By the time I was pregnant, I was in a whole different city from where they were. So I was kind of, it was just me and my boyfriend.

[00:08:50] Brig Feltus: So I had to move in to, oh, this is, I've skipped a part, I had hyperemesis. So hyperemesis is an exaggerated version of morning sickness where you're sick all the time, which meant I couldn't eat. Anything I would try and eat, I would throw up and even just a swallow of water. And so, um, yeah, so by week six or seven, I had to give myself IV.

[00:09:25] Brig Feltus: for fluids and nutrition every day. And that had to go on for about six to eight hours a day. And they would put some anti nausea medication in it, and it would reduce my nausea enough so that I could eat just a little bit of something. So most of my pregnancy, all I ate was McDonald's french fries, but I, I didn't have, you know, I was, I was, it was just the two of us.

[00:09:56] Brig Feltus: And so, and he was a recording artist manager. So he managed all of these pop acts and was traveling all over the continent with them. And so I was really left with his mother most of the time who didn't speak English. And, you know, really had never been to America, didn't know anything about being American or let alone being African American.

[00:10:26] Brig Feltus: And so she took care of me and she was very kind, but to not have my village was Horrible. It was horrible. Yeah. So eventually we decided to move back to LA and he sacrificed living there and started a whole new life here with his work and everything. And so that I could be close to my mom and my sister and all my family here in LA.

[00:10:58] Brig Feltus: And, um, I don't know how we would have. gotten through those first couple of years without family. Um, there are just things that require the village. Yeah. And the more isolated we try and get in order to protect our kids from whatever it is we're trying to protect them from, the less

[00:11:24] Nikki La Croce: socially intelligent they are.

[00:11:26] Nikki La Croce: Well, that's a really interesting point. I, I think it's so valuable to, to speak to that experience too, because I think there are a lot of people that, um, you know, I have, I kind of have a hodgepodge of, of friends in terms of like the proximity to their parents, you know, now that they have children, my sister, like, um, my parents and sister lived about three hours apart from each other.

[00:11:47] Nikki La Croce: My dad's trying to move closer cause he wants to spend more time with them. Um, but it was like, There's also sort of this function of life can take you anywhere. And my parents were very much like, don't let, you know, fam, like, don't let this feeling of, you need to be close to your family, hold you back from living your life either.

[00:12:03] Nikki La Croce: And, and so they had both lived.

[00:12:07] Brig Feltus: You have children, you end up leaving your children with this. What I ended up having to do when I went back to work, we had to hire a nanny. Yeah. And so this is another expense. Life gets more expensive when you don't have a village. That's really

[00:12:23] Nikki La Croce: true. Well, my mom, that's a, my mom was a stay at home mom for the first 12 years of my life.

[00:12:27] Nikki La Croce: And so it's not like, okay, you're not paying the money out, but you're not getting the money in either. Right. So it's like the compromise happens on either side of that. And, and what I was going to say real quick was just that what I think is interesting about it is that there's this, um, you know, idea of chosen family.

[00:12:45] Nikki La Croce: And one of the things that my parents said, and this is regardless of having children, was they lived separate of their, um, you know, nuclear families. They'd both moved to different states at various points in their lives. And when my sister and I were born, they were living in Ohio. And it was like, when I moved out to Seattle, one of the things that they said was like, it's so important to find people that are basically your family there, because it is, we are so far away.

[00:13:07] Nikki La Croce: We can't be there in the capacity. Excuse me, in the capacity in which we could be, and we're not going to stop you from going. We're not going to condemn you for being there, but like it is a responsibility of yours, you know, to be able to meet people and find connections so that you have what you need.

[00:13:22] Nikki La Croce: And I feel really lucky that they thought of it that way to be able to not feel like, Oh, my family's mad that I'm far away. It's like, they're like, no, we just want to make sure you're taking care of whatever that looks like.

[00:13:33] Brig Feltus: Oh, sure. Yeah. You know, I grew up, um, having on both sides of my family, my dad's side, having four aunts and uncles on my mom's side, having four aunts and uncles.

[00:13:49] Brig Feltus: And my mother's parents lived about 10 minutes from us. And All of the kids, all my cousins, there might be maybe 12 of us, my, our parents dropped us off at school and we would go to my grandmother's house after school every day so that our parents could have work and they could come home, they could come after work and pick us up and then on Sundays, we spent Sunday afternoons everybody together in one place.

[00:14:26] Brig Feltus: Of course, that Sunday afternoon thing revolved around church, which I don't do anymore. Yeah. So I don't have that community either. We call it the third space. Um, but that.

[00:14:39] Nikki La Croce: Well, I love the concept of the third space that you, that you mentioned. Do you mind explaining that just so a listener who might not really understand that?

[00:14:45] Brig Feltus: Sure. Sociologists talk about, um, that we, that human beings have Generally, uh, three places that are primary to our lifestyles, our work, our home. And then the third space, which is actually I said those backwards, the home is first, work would be second. And then third space would be either your educational environment or your work.

[00:15:11] Brig Feltus: For kids, obviously it's educational environment. And for adults, it's, I'm sorry, not work, community. It's like a church or a clubhouse or something like that, where people come together and interact with people who are not a part of their family, who are in the same community. And if you don't have that, there's a whole chunk of relationships that you don't have.

[00:15:37] Brig Feltus: And our generation, my generation, I'm, uh, what am I? I'm no, no, Gen X, I can, I cannot keep up with these things. I

[00:15:50] Nikki La Croce: only just looked it up the other day. So that's the only reason I can track it.

[00:15:56] Brig Feltus: So I'm Gen X and my generation, um, Was probably the last generation to have that, where we had, uh, our parents took us to our grandparents or to, uh, an auntie, or, you know, there was always someone in the family close by.

[00:16:20] Brig Feltus: That could help out, you know, that you could, and, and you did things with them all the time because the whole family went to the same church or whatever, but that's no longer the case. And it was a movement towards more individual expression and more sovereignty and more living for yourself. rather than the community that you're a part of.

[00:16:47] Brig Feltus: And, um, you know, uh, distancing from organized religion for a lot of people. And so it's, it's a lot tougher to even make relationships. with people when you move to a place where you don't have a lot of family. And it just takes a lot of time, right?

[00:17:09] Nikki La Croce: And effort, right? Like you have to be intentional about it.

[00:17:11] Nikki La Croce: You have to decide what is, what is, what do you want that third space to be? Like for me, I actually, it's probably not like the, um, Because of COVID happening, it ended up being a lot more virtual, but I feel like my podcast became that third space. It was like, this is where I interact with other people.

[00:17:30] Nikki La Croce: This is how I bring other people into the fold. Now, granted, it's still sort of at this individual level, but I was gaining so much perspective from different people and like their life experiences. Whereas I think a lot of people, you know, when they're looking to meet new people or find a sense of community, you, you might pick, um, an activity that you like.

[00:17:50] Nikki La Croce: And that activity doesn't necessarily, doesn't necessarily indicate shared values, right? And I think that it can be very challenging to feel like, oh, I connected with somebody on a level that wasn't purely superficial in, oh, I like this thing, you like that thing. It's like, you know, if you join a hiking group, are, I feel like maybe you're like, okay, we both like nature.

[00:18:12] Nikki La Croce: So we feel like more connected to, you know, being outside and maybe that'll inspire deeper conversation. But if you like go to a class or something, you're all paying attention to the, the class you're maybe interacting in small groups, doing a thing, but do you leave that relationship there? And don't really like have a sense of how that plays out in the rest of your life.

[00:18:31] Nikki La Croce: Whereas what you're describing in that third space is like, there's influence that comes from that third space.

[00:18:37] Brig Feltus: Well, I don't necessarily think you have to have a whole lot of things in common. I think proximity is important. And so, you know, I think about my family, I don't have a lot of things in common with many of my family members.

[00:18:53] Brig Feltus: Well,

[00:18:53] Nikki La Croce: I would, I would make that case for family for sure. Yeah. I think it's more like the chosen family side of it where you're like, you're, you're seeking like a, an overlap.

[00:19:02] Brig Feltus: Yeah. But why? I mean, the, the overlap should be proximity and having something in common, obviously. Wouldn't you say shared values of some

[00:19:11] Nikki La Croce: sort?

[00:19:13] Nikki La Croce: Yes. Because it's like not the, it's not the activity that I care about. It's like the, like the. Who are you at your core in terms of what's in integrity with you? I'd like to, I want that to align with me.

[00:19:27] Brig Feltus: Absolutely, and that is something that takes time to, to develop in a relationship. We are impatient people.

[00:19:36] Brig Feltus: Totally. Well, I mean if you're raising kids by the time you figure out whether or not Someone is safe to be around your kids. Your kids are grown, you know? So, so you find, this is why people who have the money to be able to afford to do so will interview and interview and interview a nanny and then they will keep that nanny.

[00:19:59] Brig Feltus: Forever. Yeah. Like we had, we ended up moving someone into our home and she became like family. Now they live, she and her husband and her kids live in Florida. We stay in touch, you know, 20 years later, we're still in touch with them. But, um, you do have to choose your family. I think that what's happening is that the third space has become, uh, Well, social media has been the surrogate.

[00:20:29] Brig Feltus: It's been the compensation for it.

[00:20:31] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, that's a good point.

[00:20:32] Brig Feltus: It's not a real, it's not real completely. So it's problematic. I have a lot of friends that I made through social media and they are, most of them are not in the same city. Most of them, I'd have to get on a plane to go and see them. So we Zoom from time to time or we FaceTime and, but that's, it's just not the same.

[00:21:01] Brig Feltus: We're not actually sharing a life with each other.

[00:21:04] Nikki La Croce: I like that point that you made, um, because there is something to be said for, I agree with you a hundred percent on the proximity, like no, no question there. Most of my friends are long distance. because I've moved around and met people through work. And when you meet people through work, who become closer friends, like you go to different jobs, you start like really transitioning to different places.

[00:21:27] Nikki La Croce: And this is actually like, since moving to Canada, this is the first place that as an adult, I've actually found a community of people. My wife has a great core group of friends that I was very lucky. to feel so connected to. And that has been so elevating to my life because, you know, I wasn't somebody who really connected a ton with spirituality before, like when I was leaving my ex and my mom had passed away.

[00:21:55] Nikki La Croce: We discussed this when we first spoke is like when I started to digest more and, and invest more of my time in spirituality and understanding that part. And now I'm on this journey with my wife and her friends who are like through different means and different paths, we've gotten to this place of holistically wanting to understand ourselves through the lens of spirituality, through the lens of interpersonal connection.

[00:22:17] Nikki La Croce: And it's this shared desire to move to, um, this place of our lives, um, independently. So like that individualism is still important. but you have the support of the collective, which is really where it starts to magnify the value of proximity plus the, the shared values. Well, yeah,

[00:22:41] Brig Feltus: the element of capitalism and industrialism, um, changes the mindset in such a way that making money becomes the priority.

[00:22:53] Brig Feltus: Yeah. And. Um, in a village of people who were living cooperatively in some ways, um, everybody is contributing something to the village that everyone benefits from. And we've gotten away from that sort of activity so much so that the village doesn't even, people in the village don't even know each other anymore, like literally don't know each other.

[00:23:21] Brig Feltus: Right. So, so you end up with this sense of. You know, you're living your life, you go to work, you come home, you have your, your living environment, you have your friends. Um, but there's still an element missing, and then we can't figure out why our cities are not run the way they should be. We can't figure out why politics are the way they are.

[00:23:44] Brig Feltus: Well, it's because We're not in control because we're not present.

[00:23:49] Nikki La Croce: Oh, yeah. That's a big statement that I agree with. Um, yeah, we, I think we, we kind of learned. And so I'm an elder millennial. Um, I feel like I was almost like as a generation, we were almost like placated to be like, this is the way things are.

[00:24:07] Nikki La Croce: So this is the way they'll continue to be, which to be honest, like I, my wife and I talk about this a lot is like, it feels a bit like the boomer mentality of like, you know, it just is what it is, but not in a way that, you know, you lack control. So therefore it is what it is. What will be, will be. It's like a, it is what it is.

[00:24:23] Nikki La Croce: What are you going to do about it? Just, you know, kind of resigning

[00:24:26] Brig Feltus: to me.

[00:24:27] Nikki La Croce: It's bizarre. And considering

[00:24:30] Brig Feltus: how boomers did so many really revolutionary things.

[00:24:36] Nikki La Croce: Yes. And this is it. My mom had made a comment to me when I was younger, and I wish I remembered exactly what it was, but it was something that like her dad had said to her along the lines of like, sort of like liberalism is for the young.

[00:24:48] Nikki La Croce: And, and then you eventually sort of migrate to this, like, You become jaded. Yeah. Well, that's exactly, that's really what was being said for sure. And so I'm thinking about this and I'm like, I, I agree with you so much on that. Like there was so revolutionary. My mom was such an empowered woman in a time when women weren't empowered.

[00:25:06] Nikki La Croce: It was like, she was self empowered. She was like, this is who I am. I'm showing up, I'm doing the thing. And it's like, but then you become conditioned as you're saying, right? It's like the industrialist, the capitalism, and, and you just, you become a cog in the wheel and or a cog in the machine and you start to slowly break down the parts of yourself that would like rally against those things.

[00:25:31] Nikki La Croce: And in, and as I say that, and I'm thinking about the conversations I had this morning, I was on another podcast and I was in therapy and it's like, you are like breaking your own boundaries and conceding to like a life you don't even want to live. And then being like, well, what are you going to do about it?

[00:25:47] Nikki La Croce: And it's like, stop conceding. Absolutely.

[00:25:51] Brig Feltus: Like, hold

[00:25:51] Nikki La Croce: the

[00:25:51] Brig Feltus: boundary. Give yourself the respect. At some point, you have to decide to stand for something, and, um, you don't have to, I guess. I mean, you could just go along, and things will continue to change. deteriorate, not stay the same. They will continue to deteriorate as they are in, in many ways.

[00:26:16] Brig Feltus: And, um, there's just something about having the bravery to really take inventory of what's important and make sacrifices. I don't even think that they're permanent sacrifices. I think there are things that people avoid sacrificing temporarily to make changes for themselves. And that's just, it's, it's, um, in some way it's emotionally unintelligent.

[00:26:48] Nikki La Croce: And it's, it's a very poor long game. Yeah, I say this a lot is like, I'd rather be uncomfortable in the near term for a little bit than uncomfortable in perpetuity. And it's like the thing that somebody will hear me say the most if people are listening repeatedly to this show, they're probably like, okay, we get it, Nikki.

[00:27:03] Nikki La Croce: But like, seriously, though, I'm uncomfortable with it. A lot of what you, the work that you're doing and the conversation that we had when we originally met and follow up conversations I've had with other people, it's like, you know, the wheels are turning in my head and I'm just thinking about how. I want there to be change and I'm trying to figure out the right way to be active in, in what I can contribute.

[00:27:23] Nikki La Croce: And so it's, as you said, at the sort of start of this conversation, it's not that it's easy and it's not that it's quick, but there's an intentionality that you have to acknowledge and that you have to be willing to participate. And then you can start to see the impact of that. And I want to, and I want to speak to something, um, with what, with the work that you're doing, because what you've created.

[00:27:50] Nikki La Croce: a movement um, I'm going to read this. A movement that educates and entertains with the intent to empower, enlighten, and inspire mankind through the collaboration of arts, science, spirituality, and technology. Like, first of all, amazing mission statement. I love it. I think it's, it's beautiful and it's, intentional, right?

[00:28:09] Nikki La Croce: And it might feel like it's trying to cover a lot of bases, but the thing is, is if you want real change, that's how it has to happen. And I, I'd love if you could share a little bit about how, you know, whether it's about the origin of the intersection for mankind, or it's just more your overall philosophy, like how you've come to this place of recognition that that's where you wanted to go and, and how.

[00:28:33] Nikki La Croce: That's, um, I guess, and why that's the way that you see an opportunity to help people kind of bring forth the collective power of humanity.

[00:28:43] Brig Feltus: So I have a little bit of a unique life story and my, my, uh, I've lived in every income bracket. I was born in Compton and I have. owned homes in, uh, the Hollywood Hills and, um, now live in the Valley and rent.

[00:29:06] Brig Feltus: And I've been employed and I've also been self employed, but self employed most of my life. I've lived in multiple countries. I've traveled as far away as Russia and, um, I've met all different kinds of people. I'm very interested in arts and sciences and cosmology and spirituality. So I explore those things everywhere I go.

[00:29:36] Brig Feltus: And what one of my colleagues, he says very often in the Heal Thyself course, we are living in the West in a labor camp.

[00:29:56] Brig Feltus: that we are living in a labor camp. Some of us don't know we're living in a labor camp. We call it industrialism, capitalism, whatever you want to call it. We like to believe we're consenting to it. Well, yes. And we are. We are.

[00:30:17] Nikki La Croce: And, um, we don't know we are. Yeah. It's like consenting and resigning at the same time in a weird way is how I

[00:30:25] Brig Feltus: feel about it.

[00:30:25] Brig Feltus: There's a belief that we are disempowered. And that's a huge mistake. There are people, I don't know how closely you're looking at this, but there are entities that are making billions and trillions of dollars while their employees can't pay their rent. They're not able to send their children to good schools.

[00:30:55] Brig Feltus: And by the way, not just people of color. People who are racialized as white as well are oppressed within the labor camp, and they don't know that they are they think because of white supremacy, which is an illusion, um, that they are somehow protected from the entirety of what oppression is. And some forms of oppression are much more subtle.

[00:31:25] Brig Feltus: Some forms of oppression are intellectual. Some forms of oppression are emotional or psychological and white supremacy, societal patriarchy. Um, both of these oppress white men. And white men, we don't talk about that. We don't talk about it. We don't talk about how, why are white men, why do white men make the choices they make?

[00:31:54] Brig Feltus: Why are they, uh, supporting these systems in this way? They're also holding them back? Well, yes. They don't know. So if you under educate and under inform a group of people, then you can convince them to perpetuate their own oppression.

[00:32:18] Nikki La Croce: That's a soundbite if I've ever heard one. Like, honestly, I feel like that's, that's That's something that like, I, you mentioned the billion dollar companies that don't pay their employees a living wage.

[00:32:30] Nikki La Croce: I worked at one of them. I was at Amazon in a corporate role. And what's, what was very difficult for me, like I went into that job knowing I was compromising. my morals, further established that and continued to stay because of the benefit to me financially in the moment, while also simultaneously being like, this is not okay.

[00:32:59] Nikki La Croce: I hate this. And because I worked on the HR tech side of things, part of what I was doing was working on the candidate experience. And I was like, this is so out of integrity with who I am, because I don't think anybody should fucking work here. Like I don't think you should want to work here, but. When you feel like your options are limited, like you're not empowered to do more with your life, and that the people at the helm with the power and the money are ultimately going to dictate what you can do, then you now are just like, well, I guess this is the best it's going to get.

[00:33:31] Nikki La Croce: And, and you sit in that and you allow it. And it's like, and I, Because I've been not quite the extent of the ranges that you described, but like I've been really effing broke and I've been in debt and I have had moments in my life where I'm like, I just have to do what I need to do to make it work. Um, but leaving tech was the most liberating thing I could have done for myself because it's not that I didn't like some of the aspects of the work that I was doing.

[00:33:56] Nikki La Croce: It was that I was compromising my understanding about myself to fulfill somebody else's needs. for the sake of a paycheck that like, didn't actually value me as a person. Like the business doesn't care about you. They care about the money. And when you're the people on the floor, making not enough money to support your family.

[00:34:19] Nikki La Croce: And you're like, but we want 15 an hour. Dude, give them 50 an hour. They're the reason your business is profitable. Like they're, so there's this total power imbalance that we've come to accept.

[00:34:31] Brig Feltus: Not just accept. We don't see another way. And we don't consider that if we accept it, it doesn't, not only does it not get better.

[00:34:42] Brig Feltus: Um, not only is, is it, uh, is it true that This is the best it's going to get. It's going to get worse. So good. Which is what is happening. Amazon is now, uh, automating a lot of its, uh, operations. So they don't have to use human beings because human beings don't, are starting to wake up and realize they don't want to be used.

[00:35:13] Brig Feltus: Um, and, and all of that kind of thing. Listen, there's, what we're talking about is energy. Everything's about energy. Um, and each of us has a source of energy, a well of energy, if you will, a store of energy. We can also generate more energy. We can use our energy for our own benefit. We can use our energy for the benefit of others.

[00:35:44] Brig Feltus: Um, and there are some basic limitations to how much you can do with your own energy without using anybody else's. And so in a village, people come together. And contribute their energy to the pot, to the hole, so that everyone benefits from everyone's energy, right? In a corporation, a corporation is not a community.

[00:36:17] Brig Feltus: Mm, yeah. A corporation is owned by somebody who, Um, in order to feel secure in their future and perpetuity, they are willing to use other people's energy to collect power for themselves.

[00:36:47] Brig Feltus: So it's, it's not just about money.

[00:36:50] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Well, because it's about, it's the means, right? It's like money and power, money and power, money and power, money and power, right? Like the more money you have, the more power you have, the more money we have, the more power we have. Money

[00:37:01] Brig Feltus: is about power. Money is a, is a, is a representation of energy.

[00:37:07] Brig Feltus: It's supposed to be a representation of energy. But in the, in the labor camp, it's just, it's, it might as well be monopoly money. We didn't even use the paper anymore and the paper itself was not worth the, the ink that was used on it. Right. So how do we decide what's worth what? And why are teachers not worth more?

[00:37:30] Brig Feltus: And why are, uh, why is education not worth more? And why, why do we not have it for free? Well, I think about Europe. I lived in Europe for five years. Um, at the time, anybody could go to school, anybody could go to the hospital and you didn't have to worry about, you didn't have to avoid a doctor because you didn't, Uh, have the money.

[00:37:56] Brig Feltus: Nobody, that's like unheard of in Germany. And if you, if you thought about like, I want to go to school. Well, they had some questionable things that I didn't like about their school systems. Like, very early on, like around middle school, they start categorizing people based on what they think they're capable of.

[00:38:17] Brig Feltus: And I think that's probably changed by now because of the more understanding around things like ADHD and things like that. But in the nineties, when I was there, um, You would be tested by at the end of middle school and they would decide whether you go to a trade school or high school from there. And high school was college prep and trade school was teaching you a trade.

[00:38:40] Brig Feltus: And, um, so a lot of people were sent to trade school because they didn't, because they didn't, didn't pass the test. But some of that is not about capacity. Some of that is about ADHD. Sometimes it's about, uh, whatever's going on in that person's life. Maybe they were impoverished and had stressors or whatever.

[00:39:03] Brig Feltus: Um, there's all kinds of things that, that cause people to not do well on testing. So, um, this is like a, just an example of how, uh, different things are, but people, nobody there has to worry about paying for school or healthcare, period.

[00:39:24] No one: Yeah.

[00:39:25] Brig Feltus: Like

[00:39:26] Nikki La Croce: period. Well, I moved to Canada was a revelation. I literally felt like I left a cult because of the belief that I had around healthcare, which was mind boggling to me.

[00:39:36] Nikki La Croce: Like it has, I'm not going to sit here and be like, this country has it all together because much like us as people, nobody does, but like. I'm not saying that at

[00:39:46] Brig Feltus: all, actually. I'm not saying it at all. Um, I think that the places that have it, I would say most of them have, are so rich. I mean, the, the nation, the, the country itself, the government itself is so rich.

[00:40:04] Brig Feltus: They charge a lot of taxes, a lot, most of them. And they, they became, uh, institutions of slavery very early on. And we, I don't think we're really completely conscious about how much money slavery made for America, for Europe. It is the reason America has always been considered like a rich or powerful country.

[00:40:34] Brig Feltus: It's because of the money that was made from slavery. If you consider millions of people were put to work for free. And we don't think about plantations like they're corporations, but they were the first corporations. Cotton, rice, um, whatever else they were producing at the time. These were. Companies.

[00:41:00] Brig Feltus: Corporations. When the, when the rail, railroad companies started, all of those big booms of economy were built on enslaving people. All of them. European countries are still making money off of their colonies.

[00:41:22] Nikki La Croce: That's, man, talk about, um, shining a light on something. I mean, it really is. Um, there's a part of me going like, check your privilege, Nikki.

[00:41:32] Nikki La Croce: And the other part of me going, so like the, the dialogue is, is shared with us in a way that. It's the, the real information, like the root of the information and the reality of what people experience and, and how profiteering around that was done is like sidestepped because you can't possibly tell people that and have them buy into the system.

[00:41:59] Nikki La Croce: They're like, no, no, that's over now. We're done with that. And they're like, no, you're just doing it differently.

[00:42:04] Brig Feltus: Yes. Wow. Yeah. That's really eye opening. You have to, you have to really think about a war was fought to end slavery. People died. People killed other people over slavery.

[00:42:22] Nikki La Croce: Well, something that I think about often is, um, and I can't remember if I mentioned this when we first spoke, but is I think a lot about sort of being at this pivotal moment in, in time where it feels like they're, the revolution is like.

[00:42:36] Nikki La Croce: is building, right? It's right there, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, well, what's happening? Um, we're all bracing, right? And it makes me think about, I always go back to this place of thinking about like the medieval era and the surf uprising, because they were like, we're not doing this anymore. There's more of us than there are of you.

[00:42:54] Nikki La Croce: And it's not happening. Like we're done here. And I feel like that is something that Corporations and the people at the helm of that that are in power are so terrified of governmentally as well, is that when you have people not just aware of the problem, becoming a collective and to get back to the, the part of the conversation around community, being in proximity.

[00:43:17] Nikki La Croce: to each other and building more communities and now we add the internet and this community that believes this and is empowered by this can now go talk to that community that's empowered and believes this. And now what do you guys do? And it's like, Oh man, they're shaking in their boots.

[00:43:32] Brig Feltus: Oh, well, I don't think they are.

[00:43:34] Nikki La Croce: You don't think so? I

[00:43:34] Brig Feltus: think, no.

[00:43:36] Nikki La Croce: Not yet. I mean, it's why they're trying to control the, the technology for sure. I think that's the, the fear being manifested. Well, technology

[00:43:43] Brig Feltus: is replacing labor. So if you, if, if you cannot enslave people and you cannot colonize other lands. What are we, what are we going to do?

[00:43:56] Brig Feltus: We're going to put all our investment into creating technology that can do those jobs so that we can still make money. So who's going to buy, who's going to pay for these things? Who's going to, who's going to have money to pay for those things? Right, right. Well, so the revolution is happening. Absolutely.

[00:44:21] Brig Feltus: And, um, there's a delusion. Um, I don't think that people who, you know, it's, it's like a rigged game. It's a, this, this labor camp idea. It's a rig. It's rigged. And there are a lot of people who are still believing that they can overcome it. And so as long as there's some carrot dangled, you know, which is the middle class, and that's, I don't know what

[00:44:56] Nikki La Croce: it's

[00:44:56] Brig Feltus: like in, yeah, in California, you have to be making at least 200, 000 to own a home.

[00:45:06] Nikki La Croce: Oh, Vancouver is like the most expensive city in Canada. So it's a, it's astronomical. Astronomical like there's not like livable wage means something very different than what like the government will tell you is a livable wage and I don't mean just in can I mean collectively like they're like, Oh, people are making enough money.

[00:45:23] Nikki La Croce: No, if people have to work three jobs to like put food on the table at the bare minimum and pay rent, like it's insane. It makes no sense. Um, it's a, it's a labor camp. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I want it. You're working. to put food on the table. That's a labor camp. Well, cause you and I talked about this before too, right?

[00:45:40] Nikki La Croce: It's like, if your basic needs aren't being met, like we are functioning in survival mode, which is allowing people like to, it's what allows the oppression to continue because you're in a psychological state, your nervous system is not capable of going beyond that. Like you are stuck in like fight, flight, freeze, fawn, like whatever circumstance comes your way.

[00:46:01] Nikki La Croce: Yeah,

[00:46:01] Brig Feltus: absolutely.

[00:46:02] Nikki La Croce: And so now it's like, well, for us to change that. And it makes me think about, so I, after you and I had spoken the last time I watched Reimagining Safety, the film by Matthew Solomon, and I was so happy to know that you two knew each other, which just makes total sense. Um, and after watching that and, and just thinking about, you know, the, the prison industrial complex as it were, and, and just sort of the way that we view law enforcement, right.

[00:46:25] Nikki La Croce: Um, Slave catchers. Pardon me?

[00:46:30] Brig Feltus: Prisons are slavery.

[00:46:32] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, yes, yes.

[00:46:34] Brig Feltus: And the police are slave catchers.

[00:46:37] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, so this is what I was fascinated by in the film was at the end of it, sort of this, it all culminating in the like, we can't just, say, Oh, we're not going to do this, this, this anymore. And everything's fine.

[00:46:50] Nikki La Croce: And, and capitalism's like that as well. Like, and, and prison intersecting capitalism, obviously. Um, but it's like, we can't just be like, Oh, we're going to shut down these things that aren't working. It's like the entire thing needs to be rethought. And it reminds me of when I worked in tech, when I would talk to people about, they're like, well, this is like messed up, but we like, I'm like, okay, well, here's the option.

[00:47:08] Nikki La Croce: You can keep plugging holes in the boat, but eventually the boat's going to sink and you're going to have to build a new boat anyway, or you can build the new boat. and, and make the transition over to that. And we're at this stage in the world where society at large, we're like, we need different boats, not just new boats, different boats that do things better than the old boats.

[00:47:30] Brig Feltus: Yeah. Yeah. And we need to understand what more people need to understand the physics of the boat. More people need to understand the impact on the environment of the boat.

[00:47:44] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:47:44] Brig Feltus: More people need to, it's not enough to just trust someone in authority to, to make all the decisions. It's just not, we call, uh, America a democracy, but I don't think it's really a democracy at all.

[00:48:02] Brig Feltus: No,

[00:48:03] Nikki La Croce: for sure. No, no, no. It's not. And that's like something that. was, I think really came to light because of a lot of the political circumstances that have unfolded recently. But like, if it was more like that just sort of made it so obvious you couldn't avoid it. But if you start to go back, it's like I look at like leaving an abusive relationship and being like, I mean, all the signs were there and I pretty much knew it, but I conceded, I accepted it and I, and I made, I played my part in that.

[00:48:31] Nikki La Croce: Right. And and. It's really interesting the way that you view this. I love, I love this. I feel like you're such, you have so much really, you have such a welcoming energy with like such a profound sense of, um, you know, collective justice and also just such a variety of knowledge on so many different topics that when you speak to this comes together in a way that I feel like, how can somebody hear this and not get it?

[00:48:58] Nikki La Croce: And I'm sure there will be plenty of people that don't, but like, but it's, it's like, it's so good. There are a lot

[00:49:02] Brig Feltus: of people who won't. And I'll say this about it and not just from a, let's talk about race and I want to talk about sexism and race and gender identity and all that stuff and how it relates to all of this.

[00:49:15] Brig Feltus: The more they can, um, these people that we talked about who are mining, I call it energy mining, the power mongers, the people who own the corporations, the. The politicians who are working for those people, there's a, a sense of keeping the natives at bay, keeping the quote unquote, savages at bay, the common folk, keeping them under control.

[00:49:41] Brig Feltus: Right. And so you don't, you don't give them everything they want. Because if you give them everything they want, why would they do anything for you anymore after that? You don't, um, you don't let them get comfortable too much. You don't want to hide from them that there are dangers. You actually want them to be afraid.

[00:50:07] Brig Feltus: You want people to fear. And it's not enough to fear the big bad wolf like they used to. All those fairy tales, by the way, are about that. You being told. what to be afraid of. So, you know, we don't have the wildlife to be afraid of anymore when we live in cities. And we, bad guys are not, it's not so easy to figure out who the bad guy is anymore.

[00:50:34] Brig Feltus: Right? So while the true bad guys are mining our energy, they keep us at bay by giving us an enemy or a, um, an adversary, a villain. And if you have more than one of them, You're even more controlled. So, um,

[00:51:04] Nikki La Croce: Well, it's dehumanized. It's a process of dehumanization to other people. And then that way you're creating the distance between the groups.

[00:51:12] Nikki La Croce: It's

[00:51:12] Brig Feltus: a little more sinister than people want to accept because this goes all the way back to Europe and how propaganda would be spread through the church. The church made deals with the government. and helped the government of a country to gain power from another country and, uh, helped the, the, the, uh, the church helped the government to control the people.

[00:51:44] Brig Feltus: There were many uprisings in Europe, many, many uprisings in Europe. And the way they kept a hold on that was the church and those religions, uh, Catholicism and Christianity are not. European in origin, they come out of the Middle East and Africa, um, Catholicism, most of the, the rituals that are in Catholicism are not Christian rituals.

[00:52:13] Brig Feltus: They are from the Moors or from, uh, the Egyptians. And, um, You can look it up. I'm not making this up. It's the truth. I mean, down to like the pointy hats that the Pope wears. This is all Egyptian. The, uh, the obelisk and the columns, all of those things come out of Africa and Middle East. And so why on earth, um, would they use these things?

[00:52:46] Brig Feltus: Well, Because in Europe, before Christianity, there, uh, the people had their own spiritual practices that were more earth based, that were more connected to their relationship to nature. And just like everywhere else, just like the indigenous people across the globe, in order to get them on board, they used a combination of violence and threats.

[00:53:17] Brig Feltus: Um, judgments that had punishments that were horrifying. That's why they had all those torture chambers and things like that. Um, the burning at the stake and all those things were practice. Oh, she's so primitive, it blows my mind. Well, it, it, it's actually psychological terrorism in order to control the people.

[00:53:43] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:53:45] Brig Feltus: Yeah. So much, so much so that by the time Europeans took over the continent of, of North America, um, People were so desensitized to this that they would plan a picnic around watching a black man be hung.

[00:54:09] Nikki La Croce: The whole town would

[00:54:10] Brig Feltus: show up.

[00:54:13] Nikki La Croce: So, something that I'm curious about, because, you know, when we, when we spoke last and in this conversation speaking about like the importance of community and empathy really is a huge part of why we need community. Because for us to maintain a sense of our shared humanity, um, with each other.

[00:54:32] Nikki La Croce: We need to have that empathy. And, you know, as somebody who was, I, I'm cis white woman, um, you know, I was raised in the suburbs. I, I think I was exposed to like a relatively, um, you know, standard diversity of thought, you know, I, my mom having lived in New York, I had some perspectives growing up in the sixties.

[00:54:55] Nikki La Croce: Like she, she was open minded about certain things and not about others, but like, yeah. I think it's very easy to exist in like your little bubble and kind of be like, Oh, well, yes, all of those things happen, but they don't affect me. But what you're speaking about is really the like profound and the prolific and pervasive effect of, of all of these decisions that have been made over the years, where it's like people such as yourself who have a background of, of, um, African American and indigenous people.

[00:55:19] Nikki La Croce: It's like, that is something where I can see how it would feel more, um, you might feel more inclined, more drawn to, you know, advocate, understand, et cetera, because it feels like there's more of this obvious direct impact that is out there that we're all talking about. But it's like, it requires people like myself in my position to know this, to understand this, to be able to also help change it.

[00:55:44] Nikki La Croce: So do you feel like your, your ethnic background was like, if not one of the, if not the catalyst sort of for like your sense of advocacy around this, what, like, I imagine it was some significant contributing factor.

[00:56:02] Brig Feltus: Well, so I was born into the era of a huge amount of advancement around mental health. And within my lifetime, we've talked, It used to be that if you were depressed or you had manic depression or ADHD and things like that, you were called crazy, retarded, all these very derogatory terms.

[00:56:29] Brig Feltus: It was considered behavioral issues and there was no understanding around those things. So I'll say that first. And that's a big deal. Because my generation was the first to start to receive any kind of care around those, what they were, was actually symptoms of something. So that's, that's number one.

[00:56:56] Brig Feltus: Without being dramatic, I can say to you, uh, without question, uh, without hesitation, and I could back it up if you needed me to, there's not a day in my life that I don't know that I'm black, that I don't, that there's not some part of. The environment that I live in or the conditions that I live in or my interactions with other human beings that I am able to completely forget about my race, period.

[00:57:27] Brig Feltus: There's no time ever where it's not an element of my life, my lived experience. And I am. I would say living a middle class, competently, um, comfortable life, and I'm married to a white man. And so, um, to say, and I live in a, in a predominantly white, uh, community. So to say that that is something that I don't have an option to ignore is the truth.

[00:58:04] Brig Feltus: It's just not an option. It doesn't even occur to me to try and pretend like I'm not Black. Well, and you shouldn't have to. It doesn't occur to me. Well, I mean, sometimes it would be nice to have the privilege to be able to say, um, that doesn't affect me.

[00:58:26] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. I, you know, as the words came out of my mouth, I thought, but it's like, is that even the right thing to say?

[00:58:30] Nikki La Croce: Because no, it's the truth.

[00:58:32] Brig Feltus: It's the truth. It's the truth. Now, it's a little more nuanced than that, though, I believe. Because I don't actually think it's, the statement itself is not true. Do people think it? Yes, but it actually does affect you. Um, in fact, I would say the most conservative white people who are concerned about crime and all the other things they're concerned about, those things are impacted by poverty.

[00:59:02] Brig Feltus: Those things are impacted by race relations. Those things are impacted by their relationship with the community they live in. Yeah. So all of those fears, listen, if you cannot be a thief and not be conscious about being vulnerable of being stolen from. Interesting. Yeah. You also cannot be an immigrant to a white supremacist country.

[00:59:39] Brig Feltus: Oh, this is going to be a good one. People are going to be mad at me, maybe. Sorry, that's what this is like. This is the thing

[00:59:46] Nikki La Croce: that was, this is the place you get to say it.

[00:59:49] Brig Feltus: Well, the thing is most white people who live in the West. outside of Europe, their lineage, someone, their parents or themselves, or they've moved to America or to Canada or some other colonized land because that land offers them some opportunity of some sort.

[01:00:16] Brig Feltus: And whatever it is that's being offered is a product of slavery and exploitation and misappropriation and resource abuse. So everybody who loves Southern California, it's sunny, it's beautiful. It's, you know, there's really nice homes here and blah, blah, blah. But what used to be here was Indigenous people who are no longer, most of them, most of those tribes don't even exist anymore.

[01:00:58] Brig Feltus: They've been completely wiped out, murdered, and people will come from other lands. The Irish, let's just use that as an example. The Irish back during the potato famine, a lot of them, uh, and, and Protestant. Europeans were trying to escape the oppression and abuses of the Catholic Church. And so they left Europe and came to America where they were promised the land of milk and honey, the land of freedom and do what you want and, you know, bootstrap it.

[01:01:37] Brig Feltus: My

[01:01:38] Nikki La Croce: ancestors, I know this, I know this.

[01:01:40] Brig Feltus: Yeah, yeah. And they didn't think anything of that. And yes, they were being abused where they were. So they were running away from what was being done to them and then came to a place where they could be free of that. But that freedom came at the cost of them doing this to other human beings.

[01:02:07] Brig Feltus: As long as we're not willing to look at, this is all math, really, as long as we're not willing to look at the cause and effect of it all, as long as we're not willing to look at how binary our thinking is and how we are not, uh, we're not willing to be present to that because of what it would cost us. We don't know anything else.

[01:02:33] Brig Feltus: I'm a black woman living in a middle class, uh, lifestyle. And I'm thinking about You know, what am I willing to sacrifice? Well, all my entire family is black. My son is black. I'm willing to sacrifice anything. I'm willing to sacrifice my comforts. And guess what? We have something in black culture we call the black tax.

[01:03:04] Brig Feltus: What that means is that for whatever amount of wealth or financial comfort that you may achieve, Um, first of all, it's cost you a lot more than it costs the average white person who achieves the same thing. You've got to bleed more, work more, convince more, uh, impress more than the average white person.

[01:03:28] Brig Feltus: So it's harder to get it in the first place. And then once you have it, uh, because we are generally village oriented, we're going to take care of our people. So you may have someone with a multi million dollar company who's black, who's barely able to live in a middle class neighborhood, because they're also taking care of their family and their friends.

[01:03:52] Brig Feltus: You know, if, if you want to like do putting their, putting everybody's kids through school, um, you know. helping everybody out when they're in a pinch because you can. It's, it's not the same. Uh, we don't have the same experiences. So it's quite simple and understanding that a white person would not get this.

[01:04:21] Brig Feltus: Because they don't experience it. You, and if you don't have intimate relationships with people of color, then you don't even know what's happening. Yeah. And you have to be very intimate with someone before they will talk to you about those sorts of things.

[01:04:36] Nikki La Croce: Well, something that you said to that, it made me wonder, um, because specifically because you gave the Irish as an example, my, my brain went here was, um, knowing that when, you know, people were coming over from Europe, that, you know, people who were Irish or Italian, it was like, Irish, Italian need not apply.

[01:04:56] Nikki La Croce: Like, you're not welcome here either. So it's like, by the way, like there was also a lot of intentionality of creating a dialogue that now these people are. Okay, well, we don't want them right now, but no, no, now we'll collect them. Now they're white. They're white. They're white. That's fine. Right. And so like, there was this very Well, you know why that happened?

[01:05:14] Nikki La Croce: Please, please educate me.

[01:05:17] Brig Feltus: Um, folks listening should look up Bacon's Rebellion and they should study, um, that era. of American history. Because what happened was, what happened was that, um, the, the Irish people who came here, most of them were not rich. If they were not rich, they had to work on the plantations.

[01:05:41] Brig Feltus: That had slaves working on those plantations and they were paid. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. He was wandering around. I can't help it. There's a dog. I'm sorry. They had to find a way to make a living. And yes, they came from poverty and they came from, you know, Uh, religious persecution and famine, but they came to America and ended up having to be indentured servants.

[01:06:09] Brig Feltus: So they weren't actually getting paid money. They were given a place to live and maybe they sometimes were giving, given a little bit of money, but they were actually just treated better. than, than the slaves were treated, but this, but they were having relationships with the slaves, the slave population, and, um, were a little more socially connected with them than they were with the plantation owner.

[01:06:36] Brig Feltus: And, They started to form what would have become unions. They were starting to come together and have conversations about, well, this shouldn't be this way. This isn't safe. This is, um, this is detrimental to our health. Um, we should at least have these privileges or these compensations. And because of that, the plantation owners, the corporations.

[01:07:07] Brig Feltus: if you will, um, decided to, uh, identify those poor Europeans as white. This is where whiteness, the idea of whiteness comes from. Europeans didn't call each other white. This is, this is to create the club or the, the, um, the union of. White European people under one identity, um, you had to change your name, you had to only speak English.

[01:07:42] Brig Feltus: You were not a, if you were swarthy, um, textual swarthy complexion, like if you were more olive toned, don't go out in the sun. You know, this became a thing that you, you had to identify as much as possible with whiteness. European ness. And Italians, Spaniards, uh, the Portuguese, um, all of these Southern European countries, uh, were more closely related to Africa and the Middle East than they were to the rest of Europe.

[01:08:16] Brig Feltus: So when they would come here, they would first be treated, not, not as bad as the slaves were treated, but definitely not very well.

[01:08:26] No one: Yeah.

[01:08:26] Brig Feltus: And They were considered a subset of European people, and so that identity of whiteness became a way to control and separate them from the slaves socially. Because if they, it became such that they were really told, if you, uh, If you continue to be close in relationship with the African slave, then we will treat you like we treat them.

[01:09:04] Brig Feltus: They

[01:09:04] Nikki La Croce: incentivize them. Yes. And that's, man, that's next level. Thank you for explaining that. Um, I But

[01:09:13] Brig Feltus: that's

[01:09:14] Nikki La Croce: what's

[01:09:14] Brig Feltus: still happening, you understand.

[01:09:16] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, well, this is what's mind boggling to me. Um, one second. I have to open the door for my dog.

[01:09:25] Nikki La Croce: Sorry about that. Um, yeah, this is, this is what's crazy to me. So when you think about that too, it's like, I mean, even just what you made the comment about, like, that's like where, what, the idea of whiteness even came from. It's like, it's, it's It makes me think about the fact too, that when I consider the idea of, you know, people, um, referring to black people as African American, right?

[01:09:47] Nikki La Croce: Um, well, it's like, why don't we refer to white people as like, you're Italian American, but I'm like, I'm eight different things. Okay. Let's try to describe that to people. Right. So it's like, we were so desperate to find like a sense of identity without the context in which you're even speaking to, but it's like, We've now taken on like, I'm a white person.

[01:10:09] Nikki La Croce: I hate on like standardized forms filling out my race because I'm like, I, this is, it's so, it reduces us down to something that we are not to try to, to your point, control it. And, and that's like the full circle commentary here, right?

[01:10:28] Brig Feltus: It's a construct. And that mentality of, well, this doesn't affect me is really a fear based uh, separatism because it doesn't affect in the same way, but there is an effect and people are not aware that they've been bamboozled into believing that, um, these little privileges, I'm just going to call them cookie crumbs.

[01:10:56] Brig Feltus: Um, are, are guaranteed. Number one, they're not. Um, but also, uh, I mean, we can see that right now. Like the, the middle class is almost gone and white people are really struggling. And that's why we see such a rise of, uh, people being very vocal about conservatism and racism, things like that, because they're scared.

[01:11:21] Nikki La Croce: Oh, for sure. And it's like very sad to witness. It's weak. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's such like a, it's like coming from such a place, I feel like of, of like infantile fear almost, maybe that's not the right word to use, but it's like, Oh, but it's not,

[01:11:34] Brig Feltus: it's not, they're in danger. They're starting to realize how, um, how all of it is a lie.

[01:11:42] Brig Feltus: It's all a lie. Well, they're trying to cling to the belief that

[01:11:46] Nikki La Croce: they held. Yeah, yeah. So I guess that's, okay. Yeah, I'll, um, I'll rescind what I stated and, and agree with you there. Cause you're right. It is. It's, it's this fear of like, well, now I have to admit what's true. And it's like, I'm not. And they've dug their heels in so far to defend this thing that they know.

[01:12:01] Nikki La Croce: No, I want this thing that I was

[01:12:02] Brig Feltus: promised. Yeah. I want what I was promised. I'm White. There was a, a phrase that was said a lot in movies in the like thirties and forties. Um, I'm white. I'm free white. And I can't remember what the third thing was, but this was like a thing that people would proclaim, um, as a, as an expression of their sovereignty and, and, but the fact that, that anyone would have to use that or posture in that way in order to have any sort of, uh, autonomy or sovereignty tells you that those people are also equal.

[01:12:47] Brig Feltus: Thank you. Oppressed. Yeah. So we're all oppressed and black people are not going to shut up. Um, indigenous people are not going to shut up. Um, people of color in general are not going to shut up, but there's even issues within the different, groups of people of color. When Asian people came to America, they brought with them a culture of subservience because of the imperialism where they came from.

[01:13:27] Brig Feltus: And that imperialism had them, um, very open to practicing submissiveness. So in order to get along with white supremacy, they would, I mean, still today, Asian people come here and change their names. Yeah. Yeah. There's a woman that I go to to get my nails done. She has the most ridiculous, like her name is Rebecca or something like that.

[01:14:01] Brig Feltus: And I'm like, your name is not Rebecca. Please speak to me. You barely speak English. Your mama did not name you that. What is, what is your real name? Yeah. And so I call her by her real name. But that is a thing that. Culturally, Asian people, in order to get along, in order to be successful, in order to overcome, um, white discomfort, white xenophobia, um, they will oftentimes submit and then look at people who don't like, uh, something's wrong with them.

[01:14:41] Brig Feltus: Like they're bad people, like they're not responsible because they're not submitting. Submission is a character, not submitting is a character flaw.

[01:14:53] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, well, I, I mean, I, man, I, I could talk to you about this for, I would say hours, but it feels like I would be here for days. Like I just have so many questions and you have so much knowledge.

[01:15:03] Nikki La Croce: And, and one of the things that I, I really appreciate you mentioning that and bringing into the conversation also, um, people of Asian heritage, because I think that that's super important, right? Like it isn't just black and white. There are plenty of people across the board of various races and backgrounds and all these things.

[01:15:22] Nikki La Croce: And, um. And everybody's trying to survive

[01:15:25] Brig Feltus: in this rigged game of a labor camp.

[01:15:29] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, for us to actually make some sort of meaningful, um, you know, sustainable change, there needs to be alignment that it's sort of the idea of when you're fighting with somebody, it's not like you versus them.

[01:15:47] Nikki La Croce: It's like you versus the problem. Like it's us versus the problem. It needs to be us versus the problem instead of us versus each other. Um, and one of the things that I, I wanted to ask before we, we part ways here is, um, so Remember Institute. Girl, we need a series. Can we, can we do that, please? Yes. Yes.

[01:16:08] Nikki La Croce: Yes. Yes. I can't even believe that time went so fast. I'm gonna, I'm only doing this because I know that both of us probably have other things on the schedule, but I, but this could go on for a very long time. Um, I would love to have you back because I would love to keep having these conversations. But one thing that I really wanted to make sure you had a chance to, to mention here is, the work that you're doing with the Remember Institute and some of the things that you're offering.

[01:16:35] Nikki La Croce: I know you have an upcoming, I think, cohort or however you might refer to it, um, in May. So would you mind sharing a little bit about the work that you're doing there? Because obviously it relates so much to this conversation and as somebody who wants to not only advocate but also become more activated, I'd love to hear more about it myself.

[01:16:53] Brig Feltus: Yeah, so, um, because of my very eclectic background, I have a very specific perspective and, um, I, I ended up getting into hermeticism because it took me to, um, some very universal principles that apply to everything. And so I teach those things. And I have all kinds of courses and programs. You can actually even join our free social network.

[01:17:25] Brig Feltus: Um, it's called RememberInstituteNetwork. com. And, um, you know, we're having conversations on there all the time about Hermeticism. So in 2015, um, I was just minding my own business, teaching these courses and Teaching people about hermeticism and something happened. My cousin was killed. Um, he was, uh, he was allowed to die.

[01:17:51] Brig Feltus: He had a severe, uh, form of diabetes and, um, he was arrested for something that he was not guilty of. And they held him over the weekend, uh, because he didn't have the money to get out, to get bail. And they refused him his diabetic medication and he died 24 hours after they put him in detainment. He died.

[01:18:17] Brig Feltus: And, um, this sent me into, uh, these conversations around race and oppression. Um, and so at some point, because I was losing a lot of friends and because I was talking about this publicly, um, people didn't believe the story. It is quite a horrific. Very vulgar story. I don't know if you know what happens to people who have very severe diabetes when they don't have their medication.

[01:18:51] Brig Feltus: But it's mortifying and they did nothing to save him. And by the way accused him the whole time of faking like he was sick.

[01:19:04] Brig Feltus: We ended up getting a very expensive lawyer to fight for his children to have some sort of compensation. Um, and that compensation was not enough. Uh, nobody was fired. Nobody was charged with any crime. And this really changed my entire life. And all of a sudden now I was only talking about this. I was talking about racism and police brutality.

[01:19:36] Brig Feltus: And, uh, the industrial, the prison industrial complex. And, uh, I couldn't stop talking about it because people were so completely oblivious. And if they weren't oblivious, they were insensitive. If they weren't insensitive, they were misinformed. So this was exhausting me. I was having these conversations for about three years.

[01:20:00] Brig Feltus: And then I lost this particular friend, um, because. I came to the conclusion that all white people have conditioning that is racist. It's impossible to say that it's not true when every single white person I've ever met has some conditioning that is racist. It doesn't mean they're Hitler. It doesn't mean they're, you know, burning crosses or wishing harm on, on black people or people of color.

[01:20:35] Brig Feltus: It just means that if you live in a white supremacist society. You have a specific kind of reality that shapes how you see things, shapes what you think.

[01:20:48] Nikki La Croce: Would you consider that the same as inherited bias? Oh, sorry. Inherent, inherent bias. Sorry.

[01:20:54] Brig Feltus: Yes. Or both really. Yes, absolutely. Not just inherent, inherent bias, but also inherited trauma.

[01:21:04] Brig Feltus: Because if you cause trauma to someone else, you are traumatized as well. And your children are, are traumatized by your trauma. So white people have hundreds of years of inherited. uh, epigenetic trauma. Um, it's, it's there, it's, it's a rabbit hole. So, which we'll go down on another episode. Stay tuned. We, we, we, we were having these conversations and I was really getting exhausted and depressed and I was losing all, all my white friends.

[01:21:38] Brig Feltus: Um, and I just decided, you know, this is too much. I cannot continue to do this. And That, that part, you know, people were not ashamed or even conscious that they were draining me of my life. So I created this course and I, I decided, you know, first I looked around for what might be out there. And this was really at the beginning of DEI and, uh, critical race theory work and not at the beginning of it, but it becoming more popularly known.

[01:22:12] Brig Feltus: Yes. It was more mainstream. Right, and So I, I created this course for my people, for my friends, um, because I had a lot of white friends and I didn't want to, I could not continue to pretend like I don't see what I see and know what I know. I created this course because I have a white husband and I want to have these conversations with him.

[01:22:37] Brig Feltus: Yeah.

[01:22:37] No one: So

[01:22:39] Brig Feltus: we don't want to, black people don't want to talk about this stuff. We don't like, it's not fun. I

[01:22:46] Nikki La Croce: was going to say, it's not a one to one, so not trying to kind of conflate things here, but I think there's sort of this similar sense of it when, um, you know, being a queer person and, and feeling like, I don't want to have to like constantly explain myself to you or explain what I understand that you don't because it is your experience.

[01:23:04] Nikki La Croce: So it's like, everybody's not always trying to translate your experience Experience into somebody else's to make them understand, because you wanna be able to live your life, but also hope that people have enough knowledge or are open to the conversations and the dialogues. Right. That will inform them enough.

[01:23:17] Nikki La Croce: Like you can't ever know all of it. I don't expect you to No. But you do have a responsibility. You have to be very

[01:23:23] Brig Feltus: intimate with someone.

[01:23:24] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. And living

[01:23:26] Brig Feltus: in the under the same roof and actually having intimate conversations about their lived experience. Yeah.

[01:23:31] No one: Yeah. And that's not

[01:23:33] Brig Feltus: the, that's not the, uh.

[01:23:35] Brig Feltus: the reality. And so I created this course and I based it on the hermetic principles that I teach so that it would be in alignment with universal laws. And, um, I had to really do my own work around, you know, being angry or triggered and the grief from losing my cousin and, you know, be able to talk to people as human beings, as, um, as cohabitants of the labor camp.

[01:24:09] Brig Feltus: You know, what we were talking about earlier, that we have to come together and that's not going to happen if we can't talk about what's true. And some of the stuff that's true, some of us are very avoidant of talking about because it's painful. Um, my husband's grandparents were full on Nazis. Wow. So there are people in his family that don't like that this is my work.

[01:24:37] Brig Feltus: And when they found out that that's what I was doing a few years ago, they stopped talking to us. So, yes. So we have this course. Um, when we first started it, it was six months at six. Is that right? No. Six weeks. And now it's 14 weeks. Um, we, It's called Heal Thyself, Transformative Initiation for People Racialized as White.

[01:25:02] Brig Feltus: It is a cultural competency course, and it's a combination of study assignments, some exercises, like social exercises, and a series of live sessions. And there are four teachers, there's myself and three other teachers. We teach 20, 000 years of the history of oppression, of European oppression and white supremacy.

[01:25:31] Brig Feltus: Um, we teach, what else do we teach? We talk, we talk about, uh, gender dynamics and, um, homophobia, transphobia, Queerphobia. We talk about feminism and womanism. Those are two different things, by the way. Um, and how white feminism did not actually, was not actually representing black women or women of color.

[01:26:00] Brig Feltus: And what else did we talk about? Ableism. So we cover ableism as well. So what are the things that we need to understand about, uh, what disabled, disabled people in our communities need from us? And are we actually listening to them? Are we amplifying their voices so that they can speak for themselves? Are we, are we conscientious about who we're listening to?

[01:26:24] Brig Feltus: So we talk about all kinds of social dynamics, um, that really matter. Like I can't even tell you how many times I've had a white person say to me, well, my black friends said they don't really care about this. They've never experienced this. Well, first of all, that's one person. They're probably, um, one of those people who is trying to, trying to succeed in a rigged game.

[01:26:50] Brig Feltus: And the ways that you do that is you separate yourself. You isolate yourself from those experiences and from those people who are having those experiences. So you don't have to experience it anymore.

[01:27:01] No one: So

[01:27:02] Brig Feltus: that is a reality. Yeah. I love the way that you just put that. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a truth. Like we, it doesn't even have to be about racism.

[01:27:15] Brig Feltus: That could be about ableism. It could be about, um, it could be about queer dynamics, queer social dynamics with queer people. Um, oppression is oppression. I feel like I need to like edit a little bit because I'm, I'm, these conversations, like you said, could go on and on. They're very, they're very complex.

[01:27:41] Brig Feltus: And uh, a lot of these issues, people don't actually know, they don't think about, they don't have to, they just are doing their, going to their job and feeling some sense of false security. And that they're doing what good people do. They go to work, they mind their business, they try not to hurt anybody, but they don't realize that half the things they're buying are killing people.

[01:28:07] Brig Feltus: Half the, half the thing, the companies they work for are killing people. Um, there was a tribe that lived on the land that they live on. There's just so much that we're not aware of.

[01:28:20] Nikki La Croce: Well, and if the awareness is there, there's also like this desire to like keep a cognitive dissonance to be able to like maintain your internal peace that you feel that you have, at least in some capacity, as opposed to being forced to face it.

[01:28:34] Brig Feltus: Yeah, it's because we're all traumatized. Yeah. And when you're traumatized, you don't want any trouble from anywhere extra. You just don't. Yeah. Yeah. And we're going to have to come together and deal with that. We have to address the trauma, the collective trauma, the individual trauma. Mental health is so important, such an important part of this, um, understanding how PTSD affects the body and the mind, understanding how, uh, Anxiety and stress affects the body and mind.

[01:29:05] Brig Feltus: There's no, um, if you look at statistics, Black people have more cases of high blood pressure than any other race. And that's not genetic. That is, you know, environmental. We have more stressors.

[01:29:23] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[01:29:24] Brig Feltus: So that's really interesting. Yeah. So there's a lot of issues like that. I'm sure there's higher levels of anxiety and stress for queer people as well.

[01:29:33] Brig Feltus: Queer people are being killed

[01:29:36] Nikki La Croce: for being queer. Right. Well, and I think even, um, you know, from a, from a gender perspective, like there's all the, these like recent random violent crimes against women and, and it's not that it's ever stopped, but I think that there's sort of this. Um, This perspective that I'm seeing is like, if you really look at, like, clear out the differentiators, if that were even possible, right, and then just look at it for the sake of, like, who we are as human beings and the shared humanity that we have, it's like, there is a very, very, very small pocket of people that are the ones that are perpetuating this with with very specific intent to to perpetuate it versus the people who like you're saying are just sort of trying to like, maintain some level of like, normalcy or perceived control or whatever it might be.

[01:30:25] Nikki La Croce: But at the end of the day, why I feel like we're this revolution is is so imminent is because I do genuinely believe that there is a broader collective of people who want better. And what you're doing is something that is helping enable more people to not just learn about it, but to activate around it.

[01:30:47] Brig Feltus: Yeah, Nikki, you know what, I'm going to push back a little bit. Okay, please do. I'm going to push back because I, I actually believe because we are, each, each of us is powerful. Each of us has power. If we feel powerless, we've given, given our power away in some way. So from that perspective, and also taking into account that, uh, it doesn't take a lot of effort to oppress.

[01:31:15] Brig Feltus: people, if you can first oppress them mentally, psychologically. And that is what we have here, is mental, emotional, psychological oppression of large, of millions of people. And so that, that sense of helplessness or powerlessness or let me mind my business and as long as I don't do something blatantly, uh, wrong, then I'm not adding to the problem.

[01:31:48] Brig Feltus: Well, but that's not actually true. And the more these things come out, like just consumerism around food, we could just talk about that all day. Consumerism around food is one of the ways that we contribute to our own oppression. So it's, it's not about, um, focusing in on. The, the, the 1 percent or the elite in some way, it's not about obsessing over how evil Donald Trump is.

[01:32:23] Brig Feltus: It's, it's really not because what are we doing about it?

[01:32:28] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Well, yeah. And, um, so I think that, and perhaps I maybe didn't phrase it well, but I, but I think that's, that is what I believe. I agree with you. I think, I think that it's like, we, we can't act, um, we can't continue to sort of act the victim in a reality that we do have.

[01:32:44] Nikki La Croce: We do play a part in that. We have some element of, I was about to say control, but we've established there's no control. So like,

[01:32:50] Brig Feltus: but we have,

[01:32:51] Nikki La Croce: we can participate.

[01:32:52] Brig Feltus: We have power. We have energy. Yeah. Yes. So when I watched the state of the union address, whenever that was last week or week before last, the first thing that popped into my mind is we are, I'm responsible for this.

[01:33:08] Brig Feltus: We are responsible for this. They are, we chose those people. We let them be in those positions. That is one person. It's okay. If you look at the whole swath of those people in government, there's not that many of them. There's not that many trillionaires, you know, and we allow them That power.

[01:33:34] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. It's like we let them play.

[01:33:36] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. We let them placate us by not by not, um, coming together to your point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's such a really valid point. And I feel like I have the same, I have the same sense of it when I watch politics, which is why I have to sometimes give myself breaks from it. Otherwise I spiral out and I'm like, it's just like, it's Also, being conscious of like, what is that type of information is adding to, I think you, we need to understand sort of where things are, but then the next action to take isn't necessarily like, go consume more of that information that's telling you the same thing in a variety of ways.

[01:34:17] Nikki La Croce: It's like, well, can you go do something to change that? Like, what's something you can go do to start to change it? So,

[01:34:23] Brig Feltus: uh, obsessed over the two different, the two parties, there's more than two parties.

[01:34:32] Brig Feltus: There's more than two parties and this really brings us full circle back to community as well because at your local level, um, people are not at all involved in their civic, uh, goings on. They're, they're not. going to, they don't go to town hall meetings and things like that. And my dad goes to those things all the time.

[01:34:55] Brig Feltus: Um, but it's, it's, you know, we just leave it to them and trust them to do it. And then we shake our heads and in disdain when they don't do what we wish they had done, but we're not showing up and saying, no, we insist you do this. And because we don't do that, uh, things don't change. And that's where it starts, is in your local community and whether or not you're involved in the local politics of your community that decides what the relationship is between the police and the community, that decides what what the local laws are that decides, um, you know, what kind of resources, what, what the budgets are used for, things like that.

[01:35:39] Brig Feltus: We have some say in, and we don't, we get a ballot in the mail and we look it over. We don't know who these people are. Why? Why do we not know?

[01:35:50] Nikki La Croce: Well, yeah. And the other thing to your point, I totally agree with you. And I think that's a really important point to make that like, well, if you're not showing up like sort of at the ground floor, how do you expect to have any influence over the decisions that are being made at the top level?

[01:36:04] Nikki La Croce: Right? Like it's just, it's not realistic to believe that. Um, but we've gotten comfortable with that type of discomfort we've, we've allowed for it. Um, so I think that's a super critical point to make. And the other piece of that is, um, thinking about like, The ballots and whatnot is, like, If you are not informed, like forget even, I mean, yes, it's important to know the people, but it's like so many people because of the like BS of the party concept is like, I'm voting this ticket, not I'm looking at the issue and deciding that's what I care about.

[01:36:35] Nikki La Croce: And I am a very firm believer that if people actually looked at the issues and voted on the issues themselves, there would be a much higher chance that you'd have a more progressive society. But nobody wants to identify that way because we we've, we've. sort of attacked that idea of being progressive when in reality, I'm sorry, but just a quick thought here.

[01:36:54] Nikki La Croce: Don't you think that like evolutionarily speaking, we want to progress? Like we want to progress. That's like in the nature of the word, right? And it's like, but like, no, progressive is bad. And you're like, no, progressive is good. Conservative, keeping what is and, and holding onto it as if that were the right thing to begin with.

[01:37:11] Nikki La Croce: And this even like Democrat Republican dialogue I'm talking about, I'm speaking specifically on the concept of what do you want this world to be? Do you want it to be something that doesn't work? Or do you want it to be something that could potentially work?

[01:37:26] Brig Feltus: Right. And

[01:37:27] Nikki La Croce: it

[01:37:27] Brig Feltus: feels simple. Conservation has gotten away from, the idea of conservation, um, has gotten away from the idea of conservatism.

[01:37:35] Brig Feltus: They should be the same thing, but they're not. And, you know, I, I, I just keep thinking about how, community dynamics work. There's a great book. What is that book? Uh, it's called Ritual and it's by, uh, Mali Doma Somay. And he talks about the structure, the social structure within an African village that he grew up in.

[01:38:02] Brig Feltus: And it's such a beautiful, um, it's a, it's a beautiful expression of what's possible when people come together and And all needs are met. And if that were the core motivation for everything, then people could have nice things. They could, you know, be wealthy if they want to be wealthy. That's, that's possible.

[01:38:28] Brig Feltus: That's possible without causing suffering.

[01:38:33] Nikki La Croce: Yes. Yes. I, I, Yes. I feel like that's such a beautiful place to wrap the conversation because it does have to eventually stop. Um, at least for now, but man, what an incredible conversation. Um, Rev Bridge Feltus folks, what, what an absolutely insightful conversation, thought provoking conversation.

[01:38:59] Nikki La Croce: Um, you've just, you are such a, a beautiful soul who shows up with, Such positive intention and I, I feel like my life is so greatly improved for being able to have shared the mic with you now for our other call and just to know that like, this is a connection that I hope to keep moving forward and have more of these conversations to share.

[01:39:21] Brig Feltus: Well, I really appreciate your open heart. And I know that, well, we have a whole conversation to have around, uh, queer dynamics in social. structures. And that's, that's a whole nother conversation as well that we need to, we really do need to have it. Um, just as a cliffhanger y'all, gender is not binary.

[01:39:43] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, stay tuned.

[01:39:51] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, I, I really, thank you. Yeah. I, I, I really feel so, um, so much gratitude for, for your work that you're doing and there will be links in the show notes for all of it. So anybody who's listening, who wants to dive more into the work of the Remember Institute and the Intersection for Mankind, you can find the information there.

[01:40:11] Nikki La Croce: And as you've heard, you know, this is just. hopefully one of many conversations to come. But in the meantime, we will catch you all on the flip side. Thank you so much. Oh, I almost forgot something. Please. Oh, you have an event coming up. offer,

[01:40:23] Brig Feltus: I wanted to offer your, your listeners a discount code for the Heal Thyself course.

[01:40:30] Brig Feltus: Um, we're going to offer 25 percent off for all of Nikki's listeners. If you take the Heal Thyself course, uh, that starts May 1st. Awesome. Awesome. So it's, the code is just gonna be Nicki, N-I-K-K-I.

[01:40:50] Nikki La Croce: Perfect bridge. Thank you so much for that. I really appreciate that and I, I really hope that you know, at least a handful of people are able to dive in and, and experience all that you have to offer and all that you're bringing to the table.

[01:41:04] Nikki La Croce: Um,

[01:41:05] Brig Feltus: well, thank you for having me.

[01:41:07] Nikki La Croce: Yes, and um, you know, just if there's anything that I can do beyond these episodes to help elevate your mission and your voice, please just know that that is an open invitation from here on

[01:41:18] Brig Feltus: out. Oh, awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[01:41:21] Nikki La Croce: Absolutely. Been a pleasure to be here.

[01:41:23] Nikki La Croce: Thank you so much. Same.