Learning To Challenge Our Beliefs with Larry Camp

[00:00:00] Nikki La Croce: Hey, gang, I'm Nikki La Croce. And today I'm sharing the mic with Larry Camp. Larry's the host of the podcast, Nobody Knows Your Story and author of the memoir, Nobody Knows, They Just Want You To Think You Do. Oh, sorry. They Just Want You To Think They Do. I was very lucky to be a guest on Larry's podcast where I opened up about my own personal journey.

I'm pretty sure there was crying involved. So if you want to check out our episode, I'll put the link in the show notes. But for the next hour or so, it's Larry's turn to be in the hot seat so he can

share his story with us. So welcome to the show, Larry.

[00:00:28] Larry Camp: Hey, it's, it's, I already know it's going to be fun to be here, but, uh, yeah, I'm glad to be here.

And, uh, I enjoy talking. I enjoy telling my story and just, you know, again, I use that expression, talk story from Hawaii, but, uh, yeah, I, I just got off a cruise to the Caribbean with, uh, 12 friends. Well, 13, if you count my wife and I do as a friend and, uh. That's an important one. I've learned

[00:00:50] Nikki La Croce: that.

[00:00:51] Larry Camp: Yeah. Yeah, she's my best friend.

So, but yeah, we took six other couples with us and, and, uh, it was a lot of fun.

[00:00:58] Nikki La Croce: The beach time is always a really good place for me to kind of recenter, which I know is also true for you with your connection to Hawaii. It's something that we definitely bonded over, you know, a love of the islands there.

And, um, you've, you know, definitely integrated that into your show and just sort of the embodiment of your message. What was your first, you know, um, venture into Hawaii and, and Hawaiian culture?

[00:01:24] Larry Camp: Well, the very first part would be watching game shows with my grandmother when I was probably four or five, six years old.

And, um, I, I, Specifically, remember, um, Let's Make A Deal with Monty Hall and, you know, at the end of the show or whatever, they would give away some grand prize and it was quite often a trip to Hawaii. And so they would show, you know, these palm trees in the breeze and they'd show girls dancing the hula and, and I just became enamored with Hawaii.

And then I just, I researched it when I was in grade school and junior high and I, I just fell in love with it and never actually went until I was 18 years old. But uh, you know, I know people that are my age that have still not gone. So I'm pretty lucky.

[00:02:11] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, that's, I mean, all things considered to have, um, had that love and interest at an early age and then being able to go by the time you were 18, I think is pretty amazing.

And so, um, what was it like for you? So, um, I guess, first of all. What inspired you? Like, was there a moment where you're like, I'm just doing it. I'm just, I've got to get there. I love it. You know, just at least in concept, in theory, through everything that you knew about it. What was maybe the catalyst for you deciding to take that trip in the first place?

[00:02:42] Larry Camp: Well, my family decided that they were going to go to and take an extended family and they picked Hawaii, uh, which I was fine with. And, uh. So that worked out great for you. Yeah. They, they, and we went for a month. So, I mean, who gets to do that on their first time to go to Hawaii? I actually turned 19 during that month.

Uh, that we were there and we rented some compound that they tore down like two years later. I mean, it was on its last legs, but I mean, it was fun. You'd get up in the night or in the morning and see a scorpion on the floor. I mean, it was, it was very rural, but it was right by the water. I mean, you could throw a rock in the water, uh, from the, you know, building that we were in.

What island were you

[00:03:23] Nikki La Croce: on?

[00:03:23] Larry Camp: We were on Oahu, North shore. Uh, if anybody knows that part of the, uh, island of Oahu, it was between Laie and Kahuku. out on the North Shore. So very rural, remote. I had to go down a road for about a quarter a mile just to find the place. But, uh, it was a lot of fun. And we would walk, no joke, like a half a mile to get to this beach.

Because there was water right outside, but it was coral and you couldn't really do anything. So we would walk a half mile, body surf, boogie board, whatever, for a couple of hours, come back, have lunch. And go back and do it again in the afternoon. We did this for like a month and it was, but it was during that month and we did cultural things.

Cause again, we had the whole family there. So we went to Pearl Harbor and we went to the Punchbowl and, um, it was summertime. So we were able to go to places like Waimea Bay, Sunset Beach, the pipeline. And I say summertime because in the winter, You get 20, 30 foot waves there and you, you can't go in. But main,

[00:04:15] Nikki La Croce: I was gonna say, that's why the pros go in the winter main.

It is

[00:04:17] Larry Camp: a bay in the summer, you know, it's very calm, so yeah. Yeah. A lot of fun. A lot of fun. Uh, that was when pka ne pca, shell necklaces were all the rage. This was in 19, like 75. Um. We would go out, what'd the

[00:04:31] Nikki La Croce: seventies or the nineties? 'cause PCA shells came back for a hot minute there, .

[00:04:34] Larry Camp: Yeah. And we would, we would go out and, you know, we'd get like a, like a strainer and go into the sand out in the water and straining.

We'd look for these shells and then we'd come back and we'd get like an ice pick and a little hammer and hammer out the center and put 'em on fishing string with a fastener. And we had these puka shell necklaces. It was, it was pretty awesome. So we found things to do. We had no television. I know that sounds pretty crazy for people today.

Can you imagine a month? No television, no social media, no cell phones back then. So it was just strictly having fun in Hawaii.

[00:05:08] Nikki La Croce: Well, I feel like if you're going to be somewhere where the absence of technology exists, for me at least personally, it needs to be somewhere where you have the opportunity to be out in nature.

I prefer more oceanic or waterfront varieties of nature, but I think in general because there is this natural desire to connect with the earth and really embrace that sense of things. It's something that I wish we did more now. Um, I, you know, you see people to your point, we, we go and we have maybe a long weekend, like I'm describing, or a week, you know, a lot of times at best, it's a week or a couple of weeks, but to really be able to soak it in and feel part of it and feel, you know, familiar with the culture is very powerful.

And Not even necessarily just in, in the whole natural earth aspect of it, but travel anywhere. I mean, I spent three months abroad in Italy when I was a junior in college. And I remember when we were going to the airport, my mom really emphasizing, this is like, Oh, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity that you have.

Most people aren't going to be able to, you know, just kind of flit off and take a few months and, and go live in another country and embrace the culture in that way. And so it was very intentional about that at the time. I mean, I was still in my early 20s. So I'm sure I made plenty of bad decisions and wasted some time that could have been better spent.

But I think it's really amazing when you have the opportunity to step away from your comfort zone and go to places that spark either inspiration, joy, all of the above. And familiarizes you with yourself a bit more. I mean, you, as I said, when we started this, um, you know, one of the things that really resonates in the work that you're doing and how you show up is your love of Hawaiian culture.

So was it on that trip where it really expanded into, you know, that way that you show up, or was it sort of an evolution over time where you continued? Collect memories there and, and build on that.

[00:07:19] Larry Camp: Probably a little of both. I remember when they opened the plane door, uh, this is back in the day where the planes would, you know, land and then they would, you'd walk down the stairs.

They didn't have, you know, where you go into the terminals the way they do now. And I remember them opening the door in that humidity and that, that air coming in. And I turned to my cousin who was right next to me. I said, I'm going to live here someday. And, you know, he just laughed or whatever. But, um, during that month that we were there, Yeah, the culture, the music.

Um, we made some local friends that, you know, we just met at the beach and yeah, I knew right then that someday I was going to live in Hawaii. I didn't know when it would be or, or whatever, but I've, I just have always loved the culture and I should say that I grew up, I was lucky I grew up, um, a lot, you know, in beachy areas like Laguna Beach, California, San Diego.

So I had a lot of ocean opportunities prior to Hawaii. But not warm water like Hawaii. Yeah, that's true. I prefer that now. I'm kind of a wuss when it comes to cold water, so.

[00:08:20] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, that's a good point. I was going to ask where you grew up because I couldn't recall. Um, remind me where you're located now.

[00:08:27] Larry Camp: So I'm in very southern Utah, about two hours from Las Vegas.

[00:08:31] Nikki La Croce: Okay, I thought it was Utah. So when, I actually think this could be a decent way of segueing from the, the, your Hawaiian, um, your admiration of Hawaiian culture and your embodiment of Hawaiian culture in the contrast that that has with your, correct me if I'm wrong, you grew up Mormon, correct?

[00:08:52] Larry Camp: Yes, I sure did.

[00:08:54] Nikki La Croce: So I can't, as somebody who's an objective observer, can't imagine a much more significant contrast of sort of the. island vibe, you know, come as you are chillness that Hawaii represents. And then the very rigid conformist, as we were talking about before we, we let into this controlled environment of Mormonism.

So what was it like for you? Did you feel that contrast, you know, between how you were raised and going to this place? Like, was there a sense of freedom that you sensed?

[00:09:36] Larry Camp: Yeah, I think when you grow up in a high demand religion, um, with a lot of rules, and, and I've talked to you about some of the rules, I mean, some of them are silly, especially now that I'm no longer Mormon, I look back and I'm like, I can't believe I actually went along with that, but, you know, Hey, it's, I was born into it, right?

I mean, most people are the religion of their parents and, you know, That was my case. But, um, but yeah, certainly the, the, um, I always felt like I was at odds though with what the church leaders wanted from a young person. I mean, they didn't want me to have long hair. They didn't want me to like rock and roll music.

In the seventies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, So, of course, I like rock and roll music. I had long hair. So, I mean, I, they would have viewed me as somebody straying from the path, but they just try and take away your individuality and your, your ability to make choices for yourself. And we use the term growing up called free agency.

And as I got older, the Mormon faith seemed to change. want more control. And so now they don't even really use the term free agency anymore. They now, you know, judge you based on your obedience to what they're asking of you. So yeah, I was at odds at times. There's, there's no doubt about it. And of course, if you're part of any high demand religion, then they want to control many aspects of your life.

As a matter of fact, Stephen Hassan wrote a book called The Byte Model. And if you just look at that acronym, B I T E, you know, B would stand for behavior. Um, I would be information, T would be thoughts, and E would be emotion. And let me tell you, they try and control all four of those.

[00:11:15] Nikki La Croce: Interesting. So I'm curious, How, how long ago did you, I guess, leave Mormonism, would be the, decide that you weren't going to be Mormon anymore?

Yeah, and by the way, I actually feel like I'm a little hesitant to use the phrase be because it's, it's like As you said, you were born into a religion. There wasn't autonomy in that choice. So it's more like, when did you make the decision to extract yourself from a religion that didn't align with who you are?

[00:11:47] Larry Camp: I think for me, it was kind of a gradual process. As I got older, kind of out of the influence of my parents and, you know, I've always Like to learn things. I've always been curious and I've always been somebody who will choose facts over faith or or whatever So as I got older and I started to see things that I didn't really align with for example Growing up, you know blacks could not be participants in our faith not in For example, the men couldn't hold the priesthood.

They couldn't go to the temples Uh They couldn't have certain ordinances performed like, uh, marriage in the temple, and different things like that. And that always kind of bothered me. Now they changed that in 1978, but it was that way for over a hundred years. But that kind of bothered me, not so much in my youth, because I didn't think about it.

I didn't even really know about it. You know, you don't know about a lot of the things because you're not involved in them. But as I started to become a teenager and thinking about it and seeing friends and having black friends and thinking, what, that's a good guy, man. You know, you can't. Belong. I mean, anyway, bothered me.

And then of course, I mentioned this to you. I have a sister who came out to me and told me that she was lesbian. And, um, I'm not sure I know of any high demand religion that, that doesn't frown on that. So, um, they excommunicated my sister and my sister's wife. Now, uh, they've been married for like 28 years and, Was your sister's

[00:13:20] Nikki La Croce: wife also part of the Mormon

[00:13:22] Larry Camp: church?

They both got excommunicated. Yeah.

[00:13:25] Nikki La Croce: So by the way, that word in and of itself just sounds so freaking terrible. It's like, like that feels like it's the end to this is of what any religion claims to preach.

[00:13:36] Larry Camp: Yeah. You would want, you would think that, um, cause religions for the most part are businesses. I mean, If I use the term Mormon, because that's what we were called when I was growing up, they now like to emphasize their full name, which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

And if you look at how they're, it's actually called the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, because it is a corporation. And you would think that, you know, as if you view members as, you know, shareholders or stockholders or whatever, that you would want to be inviting in to anyone, but I, it's a slippery slope for those folks because one of the, sometimes they attract people for the very reason of, Oh, you don't allow gay people.

Okay, then I'm with you. Uh, Oh, for sure. Yeah. So, I mean, it's the things that might be appalling to me might be, uh, appealing to somebody else, appealing to somebody else. Yeah. A hundred percent. So, so back to your, your question about when I left, like I say, gradually over time, the only thing that was kind of keeping me in was.

I was, um, of course taught that Joseph Smith had certain things happen, that he had a revelation, that he went and prayed and that he saw God and Jesus Christ and they appeared to him and they told him these things. Again, looking at it now, it's hard to imagine I ever believed that. But again, you know, you're taught from your youth and it is, you know, you believe it until you don't.

And for me, it was, it took my daughter coming home from college in 2016. So it wasn't that long ago that, uh, she said, Hey, We've been studying these things called the essays. Have you heard of them? I said, no. She goes, yeah, we've been studying them. And I should say she was at a church owned school. So she was at Brigham Young University, Hawaii campus.

They have a campus in Hawaii. And, uh, she says, yeah, we've been studying and man, they're very different from what we were taught growing up. And I said, I'm going to look into them. So right there, that makes me different than a lot of people, because as members, uh, of the Mormon faith, you were told not to look at anything that wasn't approved by the church.

It's pretty convenient, but, um, you know, they own their own bookstores. So deseret bookstore. So you could go and buy any book in there, but, uh, you weren't supposed to like read anything that was anti Mormon or anything like that.

[00:15:53] Nikki La Croce: But my daughter was

[00:15:54] Larry Camp: quick to say, yes, exactly. My daughter was quick to say, these are put out by the church though.

So I thought, Hey, no harm there. Right. So the next Sunday she'd gone off to back to school. Well, I should say that she then went on to tell us that she no longer believed in the church because she took a deep dive and got onto the internet and Oh, you know, again, facts over faith. So she was, yeah, she was choosing facts and factual information that she found on the internet.

And so, yeah, we were just, she was. You know, she's tearful when she's telling us this because she didn't know how we would react, but of course we loved her. I mean, I could never imagine loving my faith more than my child. I think some might choose otherwise, but would never be my case and, and nor Judy. So we supported our daughter.

We just said, Hey, look, you're in the last few months of your senior year. Share this with other folks because you don't want to get booted out and have four years go down the drain. So she just had to kind of keep that on the down low, but it gave me, I feel like the permission to then. do a little exploring.

After I read those essays, she was right. Vastly different. I got on and looked on the internet and I'm, I'm talking just a few hours and was it. So when people say, what took you out of Mormonism? I say, Google.

[00:17:11] Nikki La Croce: And meanwhile, the church is like, Google nothing. Um, yeah. Well, I love that. I thank you for sharing that.

And especially because I think it, there was a lot. that really comes out of that. First of all, you obviously raised your daughter in a way that she knew that she had the freedom, at least within your home, to be able to understand I'm allowed to think critically. I can think for myself. I have the choice there, right?

It's interesting when I think about you saying like, she didn't know how you would react. It's like that was the feeling that I got when I was coming out to my parents. So it's almost like a, it's like, It's a very, uh, it's a sense of exposure, a fear of how will somebody respond to this thing that I'm telling them that now makes me different than them in some way.

Um, whether it's actually different or the perceived sense of differentiation, you don't want to be isolated. Obviously you have a good relationship with your daughter from what you've said, you and your wife care deeply about her and your other children. So, It was probably for her in that moment I imagine, this contrast of something feels off, I don't, this isn't right for me anymore, and for me to be able to actually embody that and live towards that truth, then I also need to share this with other people.

these people, my parents in my life who, who care about me. And I find it really fascinating that you mentioned they were, um, teaching something sort of differently than, than what had been taught in, in your church. Was it different in the sense that it made you question like, Oh, this is inconsistent.

Therefore I want to validate like what actually is going on. Or was it like one of those things felt like it was a more, I don't know, maybe reasonable explanation for things. Like, what was the, what was the difference in those two things? Like, what did that spark? Was it just the, why are they different?

Or was it, this is different in a way that I would prefer to believe or not believe.

[00:19:24] Larry Camp: I think that they came out with the essays because. When, when somebody says something in the 1800s that they saw God or whatever, or, or even now, uh, I could say, Oh, Hey Nikki, since I saw you last, I, I saw God and you know, you could believe me or not, but there were lots of things that were said in those early days.

The church was organized on April 6th, 1830. So you can see that's a long time ago. Things that were said that now can be verified. And so things were coming out and so the church had to kind of, I think they wanted to get ahead of it. In a way, uh, and so they started teaching this to the younger.

generation, you know, like the kids in college and, and, and when you're in high school, you go to something called seminary and it's usually an hour a day, uh, Monday through Friday. If you live in a place like Utah, they actually have what they call release time. So you, it's like a class in your high school.

You walk across the street and they have a building and you go to that. And, but for me, I was in San Diego when I started seminary. And so we got up at like five in the morning and went before school. So, you know, it was just one more part of being dedicated. Um, So they started teaching these younger people the information that was now accessible via the internet.

So I personally don't think, if it hadn't been out there, if we didn't have the internet, they probably wouldn't have even come up with these truthful facts. But now, The Truthful Facts, which contradicted many of the things that I was taught and that I taught. See, I went two years on a full time Mormon mission and taught people knocking on doors like, Hey, I'm from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

God has sent us to your door with an important message. Well, what I was really doing right was I'm re recruiting for the corporation, more people in, because we pay 10% of our income to the church. That's a lot of money. I mean, they're worth over $200 billion. They're one of the largest corporations in, in little America for sure, if not the world.

So the, uh, the fact is that the very first thing I read of the essays, there's, there's, uh, 11 essays. And the very first one I read was called Joseph Smith and the First Vision. And basically, the church uses a version that came out in 1838. But in this essay, it talks about, there's one handwritten version of his experience in the sacred grove.

It was written in 1832 by Joseph Smith, and in that version, it is completely different than the version the church uses now. I mean, important things, like, he says he went, not, the version that the church teaches now is that Joseph went there to ask which church was true, and that God and Jesus appeared to him and said, none of the churches are true.

They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. That's like a direct quote. Well, in the actual 1832 version, he says, He never went there to ask which church to join. He just wanted to be forgiven of his sins. And he says he, that God appeared to him. So not God and Jesus, just God. So, I mean, these might not seem like big things, but when you've taught this as a missionary for two years, and you've been told this your whole life, there's a big difference to me.

between seeing God and then seeing God in Jesus and going to find out which church was true and just to ask for remission of your sins. And so I could see that what was happening here, and it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. As Joseph went along, he changed the narrative so that he could then implement other aspects.

He brought into it polygamy. He brought into it, um, you know, this belief in the Book of Mormon, which he, See, that was another big one, I mean, because again, we were told from the time that we were little children, that Joseph went and was guided by an angel to find golden plates hidden in the hill, the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York, and that he translated these golden plates into the Book of Mormon.

Well, now what the church teaches today is that Joseph stuck his head into a hat. There was a stone in the bottom of that hat and that the words appeared on the stone. So they don't even talk about him translating the golden plates anymore. So I know this sounds so silly to anybody who's not, was not brought up in the religion or doesn't know about it.

But again, when you start to see all the things that you were taught, Being changed and in the whole narrative being changed and going away from free agency to obedience and Man, I just feel like they're just a large large large version of Some of these smaller cults that we're familiar with and, um, Oh,

[00:24:18] Nikki La Croce: for sure.

[00:24:19] Larry Camp: I mean, and we watch them all the time. We just started watching one on Hulu last night. Um, it's about the LeBarons who were a Mormon breakoff splinter group that went nutso. But the one thing they all have in common is a male prophet who wants power, glory, money, and women.

[00:24:38] Nikki La Croce: It's almost shocking how much people can get away with.

Given how much information there is available now. Yeah. I watch a lot of documentary content and I've watched a lot on, um, FLDS and, um, I saw that you actually had one of, um, was it Warren Jeff's wife's on your, on your show? And yeah, his 65th

[00:25:02] Larry Camp: wife,

[00:25:03] Nikki La Croce: like, ew, I just, oh God, he's so gross. I like, I, and beyond the, the.

Just sheer ridiculousness of the fact that you're tailoring everybody around you like to cater to you. Like everything that you're doing, even with this guy being in jail, being like, no, but this is the divine message that I'm still getting. Meanwhile, they caught him like on a bender in Vegas when they got him, like when he was on the most wanted list.

It's like, That alone should be able to show you that this person is not practicing what they're preaching. So why are you obligated to that belief system when they're not obligated to that belief system? And by the way, just even using the term obligated because nobody should be obligated to it.

Spirituality, religion, religion. What you believe, what you have faith in, I feel should be a choice. And similar to you, like I was, I grew up Catholic. It wasn't until probably honestly, um, less than a month ago, I had a conversation with my wife and I said, I think I have a real problem with the fact that I was raised Catholic, but not in a way where it's like, I didn't have some real obvious religious trauma where it was extreme, I would, but it was basic, right?

We were Christmas, Easter people, mostly, but I had to go through all the sacraments, you know, you're baptized as a baby, so you have no choice over that. You go to your communion and then you get your confirmation, which makes you an adult in the eyes of the church at age 12. You have to do confession, which is like, I think I was seven or eight when confession started and I'm like having this revelation as I'm talking to Nicole and I'm like I think that's traumatic for me now that I'm talking about it I think that it's not okay that I felt intimidated to have to explain things to somebody I didn't know who's in this position of power telling me that I can be forgiven for my sins and it's like it just I realize it's a little tangeny, but it's, but it's like the whole concept of religious control alludes me so much because I can't grasp how in the information age it's perpetuating so much, except for the fact that there's so much misinformation that can proliferate along with actual facts.

So what you're explaining in your experience and your experience with your daughter is like you verified, right? It's like trust but verify, so like, you're like, you question it. You're like, okay, I can see that this is very clearly the information that is accurate because there is a choice that you make in what you believe ultimately, but there also are facts.

And a lot of people don't make the effort to decide if what they believe is rooted in who they are and what they genuinely feel to be true to them, or if it's just what they're told. And growing up, that was very much what it was like for me. And I remember the moments when we'd be going to church primarily on Christmas Eve, like when I would be back for call from college.

And I got to a point where I was like, I know you guys are going to be mad at me for saying this, but like, I don't want to come. Like, I don't want, I'll, I'll, then eventually we started like going for drinks and appetizers at the Four Seasons before we would go to church in Philly, which I liked because then I just called it pre gaming for Jesus.

And I got a little drunk and dealt with the fact that I had to sit there for an hour and a half. And I just marveled at the beauty of the Basilica and let that be what it was. But you know, I, I think that it's, It's hard for us to challenge that belief system when it's embedded in you. And it's interesting for me, Larry, because of how we met, because of the conversations that we've had, to think about you in a situation where you're door knocking, effectively preaching to people the good word and being like, come join us, won't you?

Like I just, what, what, do you feel drastically different in who you are as a person now because you've transitioned away from that? Or do you feel like the core of who you are, because it seems to me purely observational obviously, that like the way you describe how you were when you were younger and your awareness and your compassion for other people, it feels like maybe it was more of a shedding of this part of yourself that allowed the rest of you to like really come through?

Would you say that's. Fairly accurate.

[00:29:27] Larry Camp: I, I feel like I'm the same person. People ask me that. Hey, what, how are you different now that you're not no longer Practicing Mormon? I'm no different at all. I'm the same person part of that was because I was probably never the Version of of a Mormon person that the church would want I attended but I was like a lot of people who were there with questions and they didn't have answers.

And, you know, to the deep questions, they still believe that when you die, you will, you it's, it's where you go is according to how you live here on earth. And if you obey all the rules and you know, they have these temples and you can't go in there unless you're paying 10%, 10 percent to the church. So it's kind of a catch 22, you can't go in and have the saving ordinances performed in the temple unless You qualify to go into the temple, which means you've got to be giving them 10 percent of your money.

You've got to, you know, there's a whole list of rules. Trust me. I mean, you can't even be drinking coffee. It just like makes

[00:30:34] Nikki La Croce: me, it makes me so angry. It's like a visceral feeling of, it's like, I can't even really say it's rage, but it's like this feeling of just pure rage. disappointment in humanity that we would take advantage of each other like that.

[00:30:54] Larry Camp: Yeah, that's a good way to put it because there's, they will tell you that they are trying to look at, go back to the 1800s when, uh, missionaries first arrived in Hawaii. So the people were, you know, hundreds of thousands of Hawaiians and they were happy and they were, you know, they'd been there for hundreds of years.

Their great King Kamehameha had just died the year before and the missionaries land. And they start immediately, they got it. They've got to save these heathens. And, you know, they made the women cover up and start wearing all this clothing and they weren't used to it. So they were sweating a lot more and this then they brought diseases.

And so within just a short period of time, like 20 to 40 years, I mean, they were down to like 20 percent of the original population. It didn't take long. And. All during this time, and this is just, I'm just talking about Hawaii. This went on everywhere. There's just this feeling of, um, we have the truth. And we want to give it to everybody else.

And it doesn't matter. Except it's not the

[00:31:58] Nikki La Croce: truth.

[00:31:59] Larry Camp: Well, there you go. And see, you were raised Catholic. I was raised Mormon. My grandfather was raised Methodist. Um, and every single one of the leaders of those faiths will tell you that their church is the only true church. And one of my favorite videos is on YouTube.

It's about 11 minutes long and I just love it. And you just sit there and listen and you can see like eight or nine different. religious, um, you know, religions represented by someone bearing their testimony with tears in their eyes, saying that they know that the Jehovah Witness religion is the only true religion on the face of the earth.

And they have tears streaming down their face and then they'll cut to a Mormon. Same thing. Then a Catholic. Same thing. Seventh day Adventist. Same thing. It's like all these different religions, Islam, Muslim, whatever, they're all represented there in this video, and every single one of them is testifying that they know that their belief is the only true one.

And, um Can you share

[00:32:57] Nikki La Croce: that link with me, um, uh, after the show so I can put it in the show notes? Because I feel like I'm also gonna miss that. Yeah, I will.

[00:33:03] Larry Camp: So we, you know, I used to know the name of it, and I've just forgotten because I'm old. But, uh. And

[00:33:07] Nikki La Croce: also, there's just a ton of content. I don't expect people to remember all of it.

That's why we can just share things and, and discover them via

[00:33:15] Larry Camp: show notes at this point. And because it's only 10 or 11 minutes, we live in this age where people don't want to invest too much time in anything. Like you said, I mean, how much time would it really take to investigate whether or not your religion is true?

I mean, really, but you have to question. You have to be able to accept the fact that maybe it's not. And a lot of people don't want to do either of those. So I have family members that they know we're out. They know that I've said to them, I'll talk to you and tell you anything if you want to come to me, but I'm not going to, you know, rock your world if you want to.

Stay in. And a lot of people do. They choose not to question. They choose not to look. Um, and I think sometimes that's personality also. You talked about my daughter. I, I think if anything, Judy and I have raised our kids to To question things and to, to be curious and to, uh, all of my kids loved, you know, I, we, when I was raised, it was the encyclopedias, right?

We didn't have Google and things like that, but I can remember just sitting there and reading through the encyclopedias, just learning stuff. And,

[00:34:19] Nikki La Croce: you

[00:34:20] Larry Camp: know, so I've just always been that way. I think my kids were that way. And if you have that kind of a mindset and you want to know things, then you're going to do some research.

I mean, who goes out and buys a pickleball paddle or a pair of running shoes without doing research, but yet they'll, they won't even take the time to research their religious beliefs. They just go with the flow.

[00:34:39] Nikki La Croce: That's a really good point. So what I'm hearing is I think we need Yelp reviews about religion.

[00:34:46] Larry Camp: Yeah. Common sense. And, and, uh, just, you know, like you said earlier, you, You would go, do you really need to go, um, and do these things to have, I mean, when you're in a high demand religion, you are doing things for blessings. Go and do this and you'll be blessed for it. Go and do this and you're going to get a blessing for this.

And again, it goes back to what I said, the belief is, You are accruing points, if you will, for the next life by what you're doing in this life. And if you do everything you're asked to do as a member of the Mormon faith, then you're gonna live in the celestial kingdom. That's the highest of the, the kingdoms You have, the celestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial.

Only in the celestial can you be married and live as a family. Of course, the thing they don't talk about a whole lot is. You got a big family because they believe in polygamy in the celestial kingdom. So even though they might not talk about it now and they in the Mormon faith no longer believes in polygamy here, they still believe in it in the next life.

[00:35:50] Nikki La Croce: And that's why you'll

[00:35:51] Larry Camp: find the FLDS and some of these groups who still practice polygamy. I've got a person on this one street over from me. It's a polygamous family. I mean, they're all around there. They're all, there's some up there. You're in BC, right? There's, there's polygamous up there. I guarantee it.

There's huge compounds of break off Mormon polygamous groups in Alberta and in that area. So, I mean, they're all over the place. Oh yeah. I

[00:36:15] Nikki La Croce: mean, I, I, I believe it.

[00:36:15] Larry Camp: So

[00:36:18] Nikki La Croce: I'm curious because I feel like you may have, um, when we had first met, um, I feel like you may have mentioned not living in Utah recently. Uh, did you move back to Utah somewhat recently?

[00:36:33] Larry Camp: Yeah, we'd been away since 1983 and we returned about five years ago.

[00:36:37] Nikki La Croce: Was there, um, any hesitation to go back to Utah just given the nature of the community being such a densely populated Mormon area?

[00:36:45] Larry Camp: So Utah is not like it was. I mean, um, it's, Salt Lake City is not even 50 percent Mormon anymore.

[00:36:54] Nikki La Croce: So,

[00:36:55] Larry Camp: I mean, it's changing.

Yeah, here in our area, it's still highly LDS. Meaning that there's, there, and that's another, you know, acronym they use, LDS, Latter day Saints. So, it's about two thirds. Uh, but out here where I live in my area, um, if you know, I think we got like 12 homes on our street. I think there's three that are Mormon.

So, and even in Mormonism, there's different, you know, think of yourself as being Catholic. You said you were like Eastern Christmas Catholics or whatever. I've got a buddy I play softball with who's Catholic. I mean, he is devout and he goes and does things daily. So I mean, you, you have that with Mormonism too.

You have some people who are less zealous, I guess, or, uh, Committed to the cause. Varying degrees. Yeah. And that's kind of how I had grown to be over time. And I mentioned a few of the things like the Blacks and the Priesthood or the LGBTQ views, or even the Word of Wisdom, where they will not let you attend the temple and do this if you're drinking coffee or, you know, alcohol or chewing tobacco or drinking tea.

I mean, some of the rules just became ridiculous. And as they would get new profits, these new profits sometimes would institute new things. So yeah, was it a, was it a concern to us to move back to Utah after being gone for so long? A little bit, but we moved here because we love to hike. We love to bike.

We love, uh, I play softball year round. This is an area where, uh, I mean, I just came from softball this morning. So, I mean, I played a game yesterday. So we, we can do this year round. And that's why we moved here. Also location. It's about four hours from Salt Lake City, six hours from the beach in California, seven hours from Phoenix, where we spent 20 plus years.

And so for us, it was very conveniently located so that we would get lots of friends and family passing through. And we've been here five years and that's been the case.

[00:38:52] Nikki La Croce: Oh, that's really nice. Yeah, that's, that's a, I think definitely makes a lot of sense. I know you and I both have shared the sentiment that the value of life really comes from those relationships and those connections, um, and that time together.

So I want to ask a question real quick, because you said as they get new profits, I take issue with the fact that they're like just accruing them now, um, because anybody can be a prophet. I, I suppose if you believe it enough and you tout it enough, um, what does it mean? Like, how does that show up? in, in the way that people are practicing.

I mean, is it just sort of a, you buy into it because you're part of this religion and therefore you're just like, okay, well, here's a, here's another prophet. Like to me, that would make me question it. I'd be like, why, where did they come from where we're just like, we got a new one now.

[00:39:41] Larry Camp: Yeah. There's a, well, there's a, there's rules as you can imagine.

There's a rule become Pope and there's rules to become the prophet or leader of the president of the Mormon church. So the way they do it here is it's all through seniority. So you are ordained an apostle. Right? You have the leader or the prophet or the president of the church, and then you have 12 apostles.

So if you and I were, well, sorry, you can't because you're a girl. But if you were a male. And also probably

[00:40:08] Nikki La Croce: because I'm gay. It probably, we're just really outspoken. Yeah, you're out on a couple of

[00:40:12] Larry Camp: counts. We don't want you. But yeah, you have to be a male and in good standing. And You know, you're gay. You better keep it to yourself, I guess.

So, because I'm sure that's happened, but, um, especially in, in, you know, years gone by, but yeah. So, I mean, if they, if they need to fill two slots and, you know, two people are called and they say, well, you know, brother camp, we're going to set you apart. And then we're going to set, set apart brother La Croce over here next.

And, uh, and then over the years. People die off because that's how it is. The guy who's the head of the Mormon church right now is 99 years old. I mean, think of that. Talk about being out of touch with reality.

[00:40:56] Nikki La Croce: It's like the Senate.

[00:40:58] Larry Camp: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And see what's happening is, is as people are living longer and longer, these guys are getting older and older.

So the two guys under him, One's like 92 and the other one's like 90. So, I mean, all three of these guys that are next in line are like 90 plus. So, they, they, they're just so out of touch, but they have, you know. They lack relevance. Yeah. And, but to be honest with you, I mean, if we're just being truthful here, they are more symbolic in their positions than really anything else.

I mean, and they, You know, they're supposed to be prophets, seers and revelators, but they don't, they have no revelations. They don't have any prophecies. I mean, uh, nothing that, yeah. And nobody has for years and years. If, if saying you can't, that it's okay to, we don't want to be called Mormons anymore. We want to, Have you used the full name, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

That's what this last guy, that's his big deal. So in the seven or eight years he's been in as leader, he's come up with nothing. I mean, you know, but what could he do? I mean, because everything now is verifiable. So, I mean, even if he was to say something like, Oh, we're in the last days. Well, okay. People have been saying that for 2000 years, right?

[00:42:09] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. And the most recent in 2000 didn't happen. So I'm feeling pretty good. We made it through the last one.

[00:42:14] Larry Camp: Yeah. So that's how they become prophet though of the church. It's just all seniority and it's, it's by the date that you were put in and made an apostle. And if you live long enough, cause a lot of them don't, a lot of them might get to 86 and die.

Um, but if you live long enough, then you will be the prophet.

[00:42:30] Nikki La Croce: That's true. I'm pretty sure that's not how it's supposed to work when it comes to prophecy, but that's fine. Um, they're like, no, just, it's a promotion. So you've gotten promoted to prophet is what I'm hearing.

[00:42:43] Larry Camp: Yeah. So, I mean, you know, I, because it's been, it was a part of my life for 60 years.

I mean, it's, it's not like you just go away and like, well, you can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone. That's one thing that people will say sometimes. I'm like, well, I wouldn't leave anything alone. That was a big part of my life for 60 years, just because maybe I, no longer participate, but there's also a part of me that likes, I mean, maybe there's one person listening to this, Nikki, that will, that's a member, that's a Mormon right now, that I've said something that will make them at least question.

And if that's happened, then wonderful.

[00:43:14] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Because that's all

[00:43:15] Larry Camp: I'm really hoping for is just take a look yourself. Don't, don't believe in what I say if you don't want to do it, but at least look, at least do the research, you know. Be curious enough

[00:43:24] Nikki La Croce: to know.

[00:43:24] Larry Camp: I know people who have. have heard about the essays or they've heard about the CES letter, which was a book that was written with answers to all these questions and they're, and they'll take it upon themselves to read this, to prove it wrong.

And what's happened is. It's proved that they were wrong and that now they've left the

[00:43:45] Nikki La Croce: church. I feel like that's the best, that's the best way for it to happen. We have a little bit more time here and I, I appreciate this conversation because I think it's extremely valuable and extremely informative.

Thank you. If you're okay, I'd like to switch gears a little bit into another part of your life that, excuse me, I think we shared a bit on your show is. grief and loss. Like I'm definitely pivoting here. So I know that we're kind of like really shifting when I was on your show and I mentioned in the beginning of this episode, I am pretty sure I cried.

Um, I remember listening back and I was having a moment really remembering my mom and what happened when she passed away. And I feel like when we are, you know, forced to kind of confront loss, there is also this sense of what do I believe? Why do I believe what I believe? And how can I connect more with?

my sense of sort of universal spirituality to be able to still remain close to somebody that I've lost. And so I know that, um, you lost your son, I think was in 2018.

[00:44:49] Larry Camp: Correct. Yep.

[00:44:50] Nikki La Croce: And, and it was very sudden, which it was with my mom as well. So what was that like for you? overall as a parent losing a child, but also did you feel any call back to the belief system that you've grown up with?

Or did that inspire you at all to explore like other ways to kind of connect to spirituality and your son?

[00:45:10] Larry Camp: Yeah, that's, that's a great question. And I'll tell you this, um, and everybody deals with grief differently. I don't think there's any one way or one right or wrong way. Um, my son died of a spontaneous dissection of the right iliac artery, which meant that he grabbed his stomach and collapsed, was rushed to the hospital and was gone within an hour.

So I was not even in town. I was at a softball tournament. My wife was in Hawaii. Uh, our daughter Tatum was just having our first grandchild. So, and he was in Phoenix, Arizona. So, I mean, I, you know, I got there the next day, but I've been, you know, so yeah, it was, it was, um, It's the thing that no parent wants to ever experience.

And um, if I was still Mormon at the time, I'm sure I would have handled it a little bit differently. And what I mean by that is, um, in the Mormon faith, when you pass on or one of the, I guess one of the big beliefs is that you will be reunited after this life. And so that gives a lot of comfort. I think when you lose a parent or you lose a child, or you lose a spouse to know that you'll be reunited if you just live.

The principles and do what you're supposed to do. You can be reunited. But because I no longer believed that, I now operate under the belief system that nobody knows. And, you know, I come back to that a lot of times. And, oh, it's kind of a little twinkle in my eye when I say it. And I've got a tattoo that says nobody knows.

But it's really what I, I firmly believe. I just don't know. I hope there's something. I think it would be awesome to see my son again. My brother, Jeff, who passed away at 28. My parents, Judy's parents, who I love very much. Um, It'd be awesome to see them again, but I don't know if I will. So how do I live my life now?

Um, I just try and be a good person with no thought of receiving blessings or that I'm going to be elevated to a higher, uh, heaven, if you will. I just do it because it's the right thing to do and, uh, treat people kindly. And you know, if I see an older person that needs help, Getting into by holding the door open or something.

You just do it. You know, there's it's just it's not hard and I don't think that Uh, I think a lot of people operate under that same System that I do and the Judy does now and so But yeah, our son Dusty losing him was just a traumatic event. I think about him every day You know, I think sometimes there's a tendency maybe to Um Emulate people who have passed on and and sometimes like well, well, hold on now.

That was dusty He did he wasn't perfect and and that's true But at the end of the day, he was a great son and and we certainly miss him he was he had just gotten married and it was so excited to be an uncle because our it just been five days that our granddaughter was born before he passed and and just So I think a lot of times, especially when you lose a child, you're grieving at the loss, but you're also grieving at the loss of that future that that child would have had.

[00:48:28] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, I get that a lot. One of my good friends passed away when I was 16 and I, I'm still friends with his. His parents and I see, you know, like he's kind of frozen in time, you know, at the age of 16 and you don't know what their life could have been. And it's, I think, interesting to kind of have those moments where you speculate a little bit what it might've been like, um, with my mom, obviously not.

The loss of my child. Um, but it was so sudden and my sister, the, the day my mom passed away, it was literally the week that like, it was my niece's birthday, which is also my parents anniversary. She passed away the following day. Then my brother in law's birthday. And then my nephew's birthday was the day of her funeral.

And it was his first birthday. So that feeling of she's not here. She's not here. She's not going to see them not from this plane anyway Grow up and and be able to be part of that in the ways that we would want to and so that feeling of like the missed opportunities the Inability to like have the tangible memories there with them is really challenging.

I know that we really try to Make sure that my niece and nephew know about my mom and share things. And it's like, it's nice. Cause there's more video content of her, not a ton, but there's still more video content of her now, versus when we were kids and both my mom's parents had passed away. And it wasn't until a few years ago that she gave my sister and I a copy of some audio recordings she had from when she was 21.

She had like some random piece of equipment that did this in like the early seventies. And, um, she, Shared it with us, and I said, you know, all the years you talked about Nana and Grandpa Harry, never once did I think, even though I knew you're from New York, never once did I think to put New York accents on them, never once, and so it was really interesting to just, you know, be able to connect in a way where, It's family, and so you, you feel that sense of community even when they're not there, and I think it's really valuable to be able to hold those memories in place, the ones that we have, but also share them and, you know, impart some of those memories on the people around us so they, so they get to experience that and, um, for me, it's been a lot more leaning into spirituality, they sort of on the universal level.

Because I don't really buy into organized religion. And I feel like for me to have faith, it needs to be in sort of everything's unfolding as it should. Um, and that's. in a way for me to to find peace as well as at the time I was leaning more into just kind of listening to content around zen buddhism and Alan Watts comes up a lot when I talk to people on here because it's just like it was this first thing that somebody who was talking about more Eastern, um, philosophy in Western culture.

And I remember listening to these lectures and the idea of the impermanence of things and just that that was really instrumental. That was like a very divine time to be listening to something that was like nothing lasts and it doesn't make it better. But it at least, you know, to your point, nobody knows.

So at least the thing that we do know is that nothing lasts. So that's what I can, that's what I can sort of embrace and, and understand that even the worst moments of our life we will get through. Um, and the best moments of our life will also pass. So you kind of, to your point, show up and be the best version that you can be now.

And that's for yourself and that's for everybody around you.

[00:51:50] Larry Camp: Yeah. And, and therapy is helpful too. And, and I've never gone to, um, a therapist. I know plenty of people who have, but doing these sessions, talking with you, talking to my guests, uh, I've done 112 or 13 episodes now. And each time I talk with a guest, I feel like I've had some therapy.

And, uh, one thing I did was because when you write a book now. Usually it's what they call print on demand. So they don't print a book. If you, if you go to buy my book on Amazon, it gets printed when you hit the button to buy it. But what that means for an author like myself, I can go in and add to it or change it, and so I did that.

The book had come out about a year before Dusty passed away, and so about a year after Dusty passed away, so in 2019, I went in and added a chapter on losing a child. Uh, into my book and, and then I put through a little bonus at the end of it, just on everything you wanted to know about Hawaii. But that was just a little throw in, but, uh, but that chapter that I wrote about losing a child was very therapeutic for me.

Um, I, I waited about a year to do it and, um, but it, but it was, it was good. And I think sometimes just again, just even mentioning his name is, is a way of honoring him to me and keeping his memory alive. I guess that's more of a correct term, but. Because I don't want, you know, when, when, when your son passes away, like he did, all kinds of people came out and this and that, but you know, they get on with their lives, which is expected, but you know, we're left with that hole and we're left with that.

And so I have many friends now, unfortunately, who've experienced the same thing. I have a really good friend, Who lost both of her children at different times. But, uh, so I think there's a tendency to think, woe is me. Why is my life so difficult? I've had this problem and that problem, but all you have to do is sit down.

And again, I'm using here, you can see in my little quotes here. I'm, I'm saying, talk story with somebody for 15 minutes or an hour, and you're going to find You know, there's people that have had it a lot worse than we have, and, uh, you just don't know about it because you don't know their story.

[00:54:04] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Oh, wow.

What a great way to round out the episode, Larry. I, as always, love chatting with you. Uh, the other thing that I will say that I haven't said yet, but I just need to acknowledge because, uh, I sort of, because we hadn't chatted in a while, you just have the best radio voice, like the best podcast voice. I feel like I'm immediately, like, all you have to do is say hi.

And I'm like, yes, let's do this. On top of the fact that your story is really engaging, you're introspective, and you're inviting of those stories. It just, it's, incredible to have the opportunity to share the mic with you again. And just to know you, Larry, and I appreciate all that you're doing to put out more good and share other people's stories in the world.

And so gang, you can catch Larry's episodes of his podcast. No one knows your story, um, wherever you listen. But Larry, is there anywhere else that you want people to follow you?

[00:55:00] Larry Camp: No, I just do this for fun. It's just a therapeutic, right? And uh, and thank you for those kind remarks. I mean, that was very nice of you to say, but yeah, and you're, you're a, you're a fun person to visit with too.

I mean, that's the other part that comes out of this, Nikki, is that in these 112 or 13 episodes that I've done, I feel like I've got, you know, now some of these people I already knew, but a lot of them I didn't, but man, I've got a lot more friends now. And, and I think that's, you know, again, another.

important part of life for me and for Judy is, is friends and doing fun things and going places. And even if it's just have somebody over to play cards or whatever it is, or dinner or something, but you know, we now believe that this could be, and most likely is at least to us, Our Only Life. And let's make the most of it.

Let's enjoy it. Let's, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that, uh, you know, is wrong with the world. And I, if I can give advice to anybody listening out there, watch less cable news.

[00:55:58] Nikki La Croce: Yes. I literally was just Take walks,

[00:56:00] Larry Camp: listen to podcasts.

[00:56:03] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Yeah. Consume content that feels, you know, something good in you instead of dragging you down.

I think it's good to be aware. It's necessary to be aware, um, but if you get, it's very easy to get mired down and something my wife said the other day that I love, she's like, nothing fuels my fire more than like my hate love for watching the news, right? It's like, cause it, cause it, it plays on that. Like you recognize what's wrong with the world and then you're mad about it.

And so now you're like, we need to do something. You feel empowered, but then we don't do anything. We spiral out. So it's, it's a matter of making sure that you're putting the good things into your life that you need. It's good to be informed as we've been talking about throughout this entire episode. But, you know, be conscious of where you put your energy and especially, you know, a lot of people feel like, I mean, there's a loneliness epidemic and people feel like they don't have people.

And as you've said, this podcast has been an amazing way to cultivate more meaningful relationships for me. And my hope is that not only our guests feeling that as well, but also listeners, like. If you feel inspired by this or any other conversation to go out and, you know, explore the possibilities of new relationships with people, please do that.

It is so essential to just your overall wellbeing and it will lift you up. Surround yourself with people who bring out the best in you and with people that you respect and. admire because I think we also get stuck in these cycles of hanging out with people because it's convenient and not because like they really align with where we are as a person.

It's not always just, we have this thing that we do in common. It needs to be more than that.

[00:57:44] Larry Camp: Can I just say, sometimes you might need to cut people loose in your life just to, because if they're anchoring you and dragging you down because you're a hundred percent correct, um, surround yourself with good people that can bring out the best in you for you.

[00:57:59] Nikki La Croce: Absolutely. Well, thank you for being one of those people for me, Larry. I appreciate you so much. Gang, that's all for this episode and we'll catch you on the flip side.