Integrating Psychology and Spirituality with Dr. Jisunny Fisher

[00:00:00] Jisunny Fisher: All of it is so extremely necessary. If you will. It's just like, we are here because we want to experience the struggle. What if experiences that really test our resilience, really test our strength, our, Our commitment to love are things that are there not because they're quote unquote evil or bad, but because they're there to actually really strengthen us.

[00:00:25] Jisunny Fisher: Like when we think about the diamond, it's only created in extreme intense pressure and heat.

[00:00:37] Nikki La Croce: Hey gang, this week's episode with Dr. G. Sunny Fisher is one that I am so passionate about sharing with you. We discussed the intersection of psychology and spirituality, two topics that I feel really entrenched in at the moment, and quite honestly, areas that I have really emphasized focusing on in the last few years.

[00:00:58] Nikki La Croce: I feel like a lot of us have had to have moments where we hit rock bottom before we can really see what's where we're going next. And Dr. J shares her own story of that. What I find really fascinating about Dr. J's story is that she has a background in psychology, certificates in neurolinguistic programming, and hypnosis, and positive psychology, which is incredible.

[00:01:19] Nikki La Croce: And she has a very unique way of marrying this scientific practice with elements of spirituality that feel very grounded and allow people to really cultivate a better sense of themselves and really understand like what it means to show up authentically. So I can't wait for you to hear this conversation and if you enjoy the episode share it with somebody else that you know would love it and go ahead and hit that subscribe button.

[00:01:44] Nikki La Croce: In the meantime, let's dive in. I am excited to have you here because this, as I said right before we got started, is like very timely in terms of where I see the show going and building more from a place of self love. So welcome to the show.

[00:01:57] Jisunny Fisher: Thank you so much for having me, Nikki, and thank you for the wonderful introduction.

[00:02:00] Jisunny Fisher: I'm super excited to talk to you today.

[00:02:03] Nikki La Croce: I wanted to kind of jump off with, um, a point that you made in the conversation that we had, that it's really hard for you to. plug into the essence of who you are simply with what you do. And so I was hoping maybe just by leading with that, you could share a little bit about what that means for you.

[00:02:23] Jisunny Fisher: Sure. I have actually never heard what Hyatt said in that way. Um, it's actually really Complete the way that you had shared it and talking about essence and what I do and how that doesn't really complete who I feel like I am. Um, some people know that I am a licensed psychologist, not because this was what I strived to be, but by default because I studied psychology in undergrad only because I was the, you know, I was required to have a major and that's what everyone else checked off, psychology.

[00:02:54] Jisunny Fisher: And I grew to love psychology, but towards the end of my undergrad career, my career counselor sat me down. And she asked me, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I completely froze. There was something about not wanting to commit to just being this one dimensional thing. Although at that point in time, I didn't have the words to actually express what was going on with this fear that I said, you know what, I have no idea.

[00:03:19] Jisunny Fisher: I'm just going to keep studying. And I delayed that question or answering that question for as long as I could. I went and got my undergrad, my master's, and then I went and got a PhD and then another master's, and I just. Couldn't continue to study. So I ended up becoming a licensed psychologist. I knew that I loved the field of psychology.

[00:03:38] Jisunny Fisher: I knew that I loved, um, helping to create the space for people to show up, not just in the way that they've been patterned to be. to show up, but in the way that they truly, authentically wanted to. And that's where I found myself in, in that, in that space of psychology. But even with the clinical psychology training, I found that there was just something lacking, which is why I went and got certified and all those other things that you had listed, because there was just something about the way we are trained to look for how to make ourselves better, how to become better, or, you know, how to fix and what's broken that this.

[00:04:16] Jisunny Fisher: perspective continued to perpetuate these limiting beliefs that you or I grew up with, and I found myself a few years ago at this intersection between psychology and spirituality. I grew up in a Christian home, so this word religion or spirituality was definitely a very hot topic for me, especially going through my adolescent years and not wanting, wanting to rebel, essentially, against it.

[00:04:43] Jisunny Fisher: Being told that I had to believe in a God that was going to burn his children in the fires of hell.

[00:04:48] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:49] Jisunny Fisher: I love all religions. I'm not, you know, shooting any one religion down, but. Being told what to believe and how to believe without given the toolbox and the strategies to say How does that resonate for you?

[00:05:01] Jisunny Fisher: What do you feel is true? Really left me feeling a little crippled. Um, so a few years ago being in this intersection of this is how I'm taught to help people heal and this is what I truly believe and see and experience about the The nature of life, um, was definitely a turning point for me because I no longer was able to ignore that little whisper that said, your training is incomplete.

[00:05:30] Jisunny Fisher: It doesn't feel good. It's the reason why I go to work and I come back and I feel drained because I'm not able to authentically express what it is that I believe, what it is that I feel. Um, And so I took a turn. I created my own practice, and I abide by the ethics of psychology, and I also bring to the table things that people have been afraid to talk about.

[00:05:57] Jisunny Fisher: And that's the true nature of what it means to authentically show up versus being told how to be and which particular square peg to try and fit into.

[00:06:07] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, well, I love that you use that analogy to kind of round out that statement because something that my wife and I always say to each other is like, it's just in particularly when you think about relationships that we have, but in general, it's like if you just, you can't keep trying to fit the square peg in the round hole, you'll just like keep shaving down the corners.

[00:06:24] Nikki La Croce: And eventually you're just not you anymore, you know?

[00:06:27] Jisunny Fisher: Yeah.

[00:06:28] Nikki La Croce: So something that you said that I was curious about, um, Because I grew up being raised Catholic, I, we were kind of Christmas Easter people, if I'm being honest. So it wasn't like dominant, but it was there and it was present. And so some of those narratives were built into my life as well.

[00:06:43] Nikki La Croce: What was it that invited you into spirituality? Like, was there a moment that you can recall where it sort of, um, shifted for you where you were like, this is something that I really care about pursuing for me. Did somebody inspire that in you? Um, like what was the catalyst there?

[00:07:01] Jisunny Fisher: Fantastic question. So when I went and got my master's at Columbia university, there was a professor there by the name of Lisa Miller and she opened, I believe it was a spirituality course.

[00:07:13] Jisunny Fisher: I don't remember exactly what the course was, but the way that she showed up in every class, she stood in the front and she was completely authentic, allowed herself to be vulnerable. And I remember thinking to myself up until maybe like week four or five, cause. Every time we had a class, she'd stand there and she'd cry.

[00:07:34] Jisunny Fisher: And that that part of me that was trained to look at tears or look at emotion, emotionally expressing ourselves in public as a as a no, no, as a bad thing. Right. It really did kick up. And I remember thinking to myself how unprofessional of her. You know, it's so weird that a psychology professor would be this way.

[00:07:52] Jisunny Fisher: You know, and I had these all these internal thoughts until around like four weeks or so. Things began to shift and I began to truly feel moved by the way she was allowing herself to express herself. By the, not just the way she showed up, but with the content. She showed up with love and with the content of love.

[00:08:13] Jisunny Fisher: And I remember, I forget what the documentary was called, but there was a documentary called What The Bleep Do We Know or something along those lines. And it really blew the doors open for me in terms of what the nature of reality is. And that started me down that rabbit hole of looking for what nature of reality is and looking to study different things like hypnosis and looking at different.

[00:08:35] Jisunny Fisher: So I actually minored in religious studies, believe it or not, an undergrad, which was actually quite fascinating. And just learning to accept that. Well, in high school, I was a huge Bible thumper, right? Like you, it was interesting

[00:08:47] Nikki La Croce: to know,

[00:08:48] Jisunny Fisher: yeah, you believe this because this is, you know, the way, or, you know, my way, or the highway word of God, exactly.

[00:08:56] Jisunny Fisher: Um, so coming from that particular perspective and context and. Studying all these beautiful religions and how there's this interweaving themes that just ran across all religions, whether you considered yourself a Christian, a Catholic, Muslim, it really didn't matter, right? This idea that we are, um, pursuing knowledge that Can be only true in the way that we pursue it was such for me, it now seems like such a paradox.

[00:09:27] Jisunny Fisher: But Lisa Miller, the professor that taught that course and ended up being my advisor. She really did blow open doors for me in terms of how I can show up authentically and how to question the nature of what we think we know. which really does play into what it is that I love to do. And in essence, it's to help people rewrite distorted love maps.

[00:09:51] Jisunny Fisher: And these love maps that we're given about ourselves, about our relationships, about ourselves in the context of the bigger life and universe, they're distorted because they've been handed down to us from other human beings who are also flawed. But we take these things to mean exactly what they are, you know, and put them up on pedestals when in essence, what we're gathering is someone else's view of their life and what they think the world is.

[00:10:18] Jisunny Fisher: Instead of using discernment, I was taught to just take everything in. And if someone else said it, who is older, wiser, you know, bigger, whatever that was like, yep, they're right. I have to put my beliefs aside. Um, so that was a huge turning point for me.

[00:10:33] Nikki La Croce: Wow, so it's interesting how that all came together for you.

[00:10:39] Nikki La Croce: I, so, I appreciate so much that you minored in religious studies, um, to, to allow yourself to understand more, what it was that you were starting to question, it sounds like, and What that shows me too is like it's that curiosity, right? I think it's very hard to live an authentic life or a fulfilling life if you don't come from a place of curiosity and love because the thing that and not to go too far down this path, but I think when we focus and put the emphasis on love and Removing sort of the barriers to that, you know your response to You your professor sort of having this emotional reaction.

[00:11:25] Nikki La Croce: I mean, I think I probably would have thought the same thing. I would have been like, what's happening, you know? Um, but, but as you said, and I love the, the way you framed it and like, it blew the doors open for you because it's a very visual thing and you can kind of picture the, the visceral impact that that has on you.

[00:11:39] Nikki La Croce: But it's like, we were taught, you know, this is the way to do things and this is how you respond to things and something in you charged you to say, okay, but what if that's not actually what it is and maybe what it actually is isn't really any of this and it's it's the Combination and the culmination of all the things that are happening around us And as you said in and through I'm sure you're excuse me education in psychology.

[00:12:07] Nikki La Croce: It's like there's the Transgenerational trauma there's all the old stuff that we're holding on to there's the things that like we don't even know that we have that We're holding on to you know and so I, I feel like it's really interesting to just hear how your journey evolved and throughout it though, really came from this place of seeking to understand.

[00:12:27] Nikki La Croce: And so once you sort of started to grasp that understanding of, you know, I guess the circumstance around us and our perceived reality, how did that start to impact the way you were showing up in the world?

[00:12:41] Jisunny Fisher: So I started doing a lot of meditating and in the beginning the meditations were very extreme or intense because of the emotional turmoil that I was in.

[00:12:53] Jisunny Fisher: Um, I remember being curled up in a cold bathtub for months and then every day, day in, day out, bawling my eyes out, coming out of the bathtub, you know, splashing water on my cold water on my face and then walking out the door as if nothing ever happened and I remember doing that in, in privacy, if you will, because I wasn't sure what was happening.

[00:13:18] Jisunny Fisher: And in only doing the inner research and inner reflection on what I was really going through, and acknowledging that perhaps the things that I was going through isn't just my own, but something that I'm tapping into, that I began to slowly chip away and slowly begin to acknowledge that, you know what, like this sounds absurd.

[00:13:41] Jisunny Fisher: And in fact, if I were to take what I was experiencing during that period of my life, and I actually went to a psychiatrist, they probably would have gone check, check, check, yep, schizophrenia, and would have medicated me. So to actually acknowledge the things that I was experiencing and to give myself permission to trust what I was going through, was a huge turning point for me.

[00:14:04] Jisunny Fisher: And that took a lot of work, a lot of inner shadow work, if you want to call it that, but a lot of learning to love myself and accept myself with no conditions whatsoever, which I did. at the foundations of it really was about looking at where do I lack in the, in the sense of what's holding me back from actually accepting myself unconditionally.

[00:14:28] Nikki La Croce: Wow.

[00:14:28] Jisunny Fisher: Yeah.

[00:14:29] Nikki La Croce: That's a huge, huge question. That's like the most loaded question you can ask.

[00:14:33] Jisunny Fisher: Absolutely. But so many of us are So scared to ask that question, because we think that when we find those things, that means we're permanently flawed. There's something wrong with us. We're unlovable. We're going to be abandoned.

[00:14:45] Jisunny Fisher: Um, you know, that sense of being, being a big failure or fraud, like all of those things, those major things that Pull at our heartstrings without us even acknowledging or being aware of it are the things that come up when we ask questions like that. But I have to ask those questions. What are those things that I'm ashamed about?

[00:15:02] Jisunny Fisher: Like those things that I'm afraid to say to someone, whether it's a friend or a stranger, because those are the areas in my life where I know I wasn't given either a, the resources to process and comprehend, or b, given the space to Accept all of that without any resistance. I see you shifting a little bit, listening to that.

[00:15:25] Jisunny Fisher: Yeah, it's just,

[00:15:26] Nikki La Croce: it's, it's so relatable. And I think that this is, I love that you're sharing this because the fact that you experience this yourself and you also have the academic backing. Right? You've got all the credentials you need to be able to be like, this is a, a, a factual, valid, scientifically back statement.

[00:15:46] Nikki La Croce: Yes. And also the experience that you had is reflective of like what all that looks like in coming together. And I, I'm really just blown away by how clearly you're able to articulate that. The reason I sort of started to shift, um, and I'm sorry for distracting, but it was, it was this moment of, God, I like really can't wait for people to hear this because this is exactly what people need to hear.

[00:16:10] Nikki La Croce: Like, ask the hard questions. It's super fucking uncomfortable. I get that. I do. But like, you gotta do it if you want to stop being uncomfortable.

[00:16:18] Jisunny Fisher: Yes. Well, here's the thing, though. The paradox of the human experience is that we don't want to be uncomfortable, but that spirit aspect of us, the part of us that is not just our, you know, the thing that thinks all the time or the thing that feels, but the thing that is observing and witnessing all of it wants the struggle.

[00:16:37] Jisunny Fisher: That's why we're here. And we're here to experience the struggle and discomfort. And yet we try with our heads saying, I don't want to be uncomfortable. And we try and avoid it, resist it, whatever it is, suppress it. But that delays the process. Yes. This is why, you know, people come to me and say, I'm having a midlife crisis, whether it's at 25 or 55.

[00:16:57] Jisunny Fisher: It's because we keep pushing down the threshold. Things that were like, I know those are whispers that are mine that are true, but I'm going to push them down because society says it's not acceptable because my mom said it wasn't lovable. And that's the thing that makes me really, really, I just want to like shake people and say, you are so perfectly imperfect.

[00:17:17] Jisunny Fisher: Yes. But the work is looking at those things that make us uncomfortable. Like the longer you delay it, the longer it takes. And it's inevitable. It's the human paradox. We, we want the struggle. The spirit does, but the human condition is like, Nope, don't struggle,

[00:17:33] Nikki La Croce: fix it, fix it.

[00:17:34] Jisunny Fisher: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Fix it.

[00:17:37] Nikki La Croce: When you were going through this process and you, and you went through this dark period, you know, you said you, it sort of began with meditation. Um, was there, beyond that, um, or actually, you know what, through meditation, like, what was your experience, um, in doing that, that, you know, really helped move you forward in your spiritual journey?

[00:17:56] Jisunny Fisher: Yeah, my meditation experience started with being trained as a mindfulness teacher, and, um, that is probably the only quote unquote certification that I have as a meditation practitioner. Um, But it was only through sitting with myself, whether I'm sitting down and closing my eyes with my legs crossed, or I'm walking down the street or taking a shower, when I'm silent with either myself or my thoughts and my feelings, that's when I can create the space to actually my higher self, my spirit, my over soul, whatever you want to call that thing is, comes and speaks with me.

[00:18:39] Jisunny Fisher: And some of the things that I experienced during meditation was a very extremely, um, I don't know if catapulting is the right word, but it really does help catapult my healing experiences where I get. You know, snippets or pull a full on picture, motion picture of past lives that are contributing to the particular experience or problem I'm having now, or I'm understanding myself in different perspectives and dimensions and ways that help the healing to actually happen automatically, or I'm receiving visions and downloads of things that I know in my heart are true, that helped me to actually plug into what I'm really passionate about, but my, you know, Whatever that meditation practice looks like in that part or that time of my life.

[00:19:27] Jisunny Fisher: it really does help me. It clears the way for me to actually speak to the thing that matters most, which is my higher self.

[00:19:34] Nikki La Croce: And

[00:19:35] Jisunny Fisher: during the beginning part of my awakening, or if you want to call it the dark night area of my life or stage of my life, it was extremely difficult because I experienced this level of despair and agony and grief that really weren't mine.

[00:19:50] Jisunny Fisher: And I was connecting to something that was much deeper. And I was, I mean, I had all of these experiences where I. Couldn't explain to you logically how they happen, but I'll have an experience and then I'll read, I'll open up a book randomly and then there's an explanation of what I was experiencing. So like the, the universe was leaving breadcrumbs for me to follow to say, you're on the right track.

[00:20:11] Jisunny Fisher: Keep going. Yes. This way. Nope. Turn this way. Um, That was the first part. And then slowly, as I did a lot of that work, it shifted where I began to feel a sense of extreme inner peace that I didn't know was possible, or that I didn't know that I wasn't experiencing. I always thought like, Oh, I'm a peaceful person, you know, because I'm bubbly, and I don't have a lot of anxiety.

[00:20:33] Jisunny Fisher: But that's very different from like, when I can go into my heart space, and there's this Silky feeling that I know is that sense of peace that is so hard to come by because we don't do the work.

[00:20:46] Nikki La Croce: I love it. And, you know, you said a couple of things that I wanted to touch on there. Um, I'll kind of go work backwards from it.

[00:20:53] Nikki La Croce: The inner peace. Part of it is so critical. I it's something that so I don't know that I ever would have said I really felt at peace Up until probably fairly recently in the last couple of years. I was in a long term like narcissistic abusive relationship So that is like quite the contrary of being at peace and I actually had this moment the other day where I was like This is so amazing to be able to embody this sense of peace, to feel at ease, to know that, like, I'm safe, to have the trust in the way that my life has gone, and to bring that back to what you said about, you know, following those breadcrumbs, the product of following those breadcrumbs is me being able to get to that place of, of inner peace.

[00:21:39] Nikki La Croce: So, yeah. Also, um, you know for myself through meditation and being willing and open to like what signs are being offered to me And this is stuff that if it was like years ago I would have rolled my eyes scoffed done all the things that like plenty of people are probably still doing but it's like When you start to witness the transformation that you have, and it's not just like, oh, things in my life are changing, and the circumstances are changing, like, the inner peace is the product of you doing the work, asking those questions, deciding that you will put some attention on the things that you want to avoid.

[00:22:15] Nikki La Croce: Because avoiding them is actually creating strain in your body and your mind and, and, and your soul. And so I feel like what you're really emphasizing here, and I think listeners should really, um, grab onto if you haven't, you know, already experienced this for yourself is that We are capable of navigating even the most difficult moments in our lives if we give ourselves space to address them, um, and that ignoring them just is never going to resolve it.

[00:22:45] Nikki La Croce: And, and I think it's also important to say, go at the pace that works for you. And don't feel like you have to unravel all of it at once. The thing that I like to say to people is like, start tugging the thread, but like, you don't have to unravel all of it, right? Like, you can be like, I've tugged enough for today, like, we're good.

[00:23:03] Nikki La Croce: Um, this is, this is my threshold, this is what I can do. But, start. Because it's like the massive difference between the time where I wasn't really actively working on my mental health or practicing, um, you know, ways of embodying my spirituality. It was like night and day to where I am now and I wouldn't go back.

[00:23:24] Nikki La Croce: I would rather, like, have that feeling of discomfort in accessing those parts of myself than feel stuck in the place that I was, and it sounds a bit like that's where you've gotten to because when you were describing sort of that dark period in your life, it feels like that was, like, really, um, stagnant for you.

[00:23:42] Jisunny Fisher: Yes, absolutely. There is definitely a difference, like you were alluding to Nikki, between the sense of discomfort because you're doing the thing that's uncomfortable and a sense of discomfort of either being stuck or feeling lost. And, I think that it's such a big distinction between the two types of discomforts and I think that's a great point that you made about distinguishing the two different ways that we can experience discomfort.

[00:24:10] Jisunny Fisher: Well,

[00:24:10] Nikki La Croce: I appreciate you saying that and it actually reminded me of something that we spoke about when we had our intro call and sort of a moment of realization for you that was really significant was when you were out connecting with nature and I want to say you were in California. Um, can you share a little bit about that experience for you?

[00:24:28] Jisunny Fisher: Is this the one with Mount Shasta?

[00:24:30] Nikki La Croce: Yes, I think so. Okay.

[00:24:32] Jisunny Fisher: The first time I went to Mount Shasta, I didn't know why I was going. All I know is that I heard the word Shasta in one of my meditations. I didn't even know that it was a, a place. a place. I just heard the word and I did some research and I googled Shasta and I went, Oh, it's a mountain in California.

[00:24:48] Jisunny Fisher: There must be something there. So I'm going to go and I didn't know why, didn't know when, but everything lined up where I ended up going. That was probably my first ever solo trip, which I must say, if you don't take solo trips, it's so worth the time.

[00:25:01] Nikki La Croce: Yes.

[00:25:03] Jisunny Fisher: But I remember being at Mount Shasta the first time, and it was the first morning that I was actually setting out to go on a hike.

[00:25:10] Jisunny Fisher: I got my coffee, I got whatever it was that I, um, got in terms of snacks to eat for my drive up, because you are supposed to drive, if you're doing this one particular hike, you drive up, partially up the mountain, and then you start the trail there. And I remember, I'm about to start the, the major drive up the mountain, and the street, Is lined with beautiful, tall, and I don't know exactly what types of trees there, but huge, gorgeous oak or conifer trees and definitely not oak, but somewhere in the sisterhood of conifer trees and just beautiful trees.

[00:25:45] Jisunny Fisher: And I'm about to start my drive and all of a sudden I look up and I see the tip of the mountain. Obviously, I'm not going to get to the top. That particular hike, because it was during a winter month and you couldn't reach the height of it, but I just remembered breaking down, like I had to pull the car over because as I spotted the mountain, as I'm about to do the drive, my whole body starts.

[00:26:11] Jisunny Fisher: buzzing. And I not only hear the words, but I feel the words welcome home. And I had to just like I was I was convulsing in my car, I couldn't drive, I had to pull over, and I didn't know what was happening. But I just remember feeling this, this welcome, this warmth, this feeling held, and I And for as long as I can remember, Nikki, I've been obsessed looking for magic.

[00:26:40] Jisunny Fisher: I've, I've, I'm, I have this like visceral need, like an addict, uh, to experience awe, a sense of awe. And to feel it so viscerally, so unexpectedly, usually those things are maybe like, um, prompted or invoked because I sit down in a meditation, but this was so unexpected. And I just remember feeling that way on the drive up, I had to pull over, I gathered myself, and I'm on this hike, and I just have these like, this constant stream of visions and downloads.

[00:27:13] Jisunny Fisher: And this was actually right before COVID even happened. And I remember getting this one particular, I'm hiking in, in the snow. And All alone, um, such a, an amazing experience of stillness. And I have these like streaming conscious downloads. And one of them, I remember seeing, it felt like this Big entity was picking up planet Earth, like literally picking it up.

[00:27:42] Jisunny Fisher: And as this entity was picking it up, I see the souls leaving the planet. And I remember just like being so choked up with emotion because I wasn't sure what that was. Like, was that a premonition? Was it just something I needed for myself? Um, I wasn't exactly sure what that was, but you know, I take notes.

[00:28:02] Jisunny Fisher: So I finished the hike. And in the course of the next few days, I'm given these messages that it's something that's about to happen. I didn't really think much of it because I don't want to over interpret something um, with my intellect where it's not, my intellect has no business being there. So I drug it off and A couple days later, I believe, um, the Australian fires happened with the koala bears.

[00:28:28] Jisunny Fisher: Oh wow.

[00:28:29] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. And

[00:28:29] Jisunny Fisher: I thought, I was like, Oh, it must be that. It must've been the koala bears that I saw that lost so many lives. Right. And that's initially what I thought, even though I didn't, feel in my intuition in my gut that that was real. I thought, okay, that must make sense. This is why I say my intellect has no business being in this realm.

[00:28:46] Jisunny Fisher: Yeah. Um, but it was after a few months of that particular premonition that I got, um, that COVID happened. And that vision that I received was about COVID and about the planet being picked up and all of the souls leaving. And I know this is a really hot topic for some people, so I don't want to get too much into it, but I.

[00:29:05] Jisunny Fisher: I just know from that experience that it's not just about my spirit and me connecting to my higher self, but really is about connecting to everything else, everyone else, that sense of oneness.

[00:29:20] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:29:21] Jisunny Fisher: Right. So like when people ask me like, what, you know, where are you from? What's your ethnicity? What's your race?

[00:29:26] Jisunny Fisher: Like none of that matters to me.

[00:29:29] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, I get that.

[00:29:30] Jisunny Fisher: It's humanity. I'm from the race of humans. Like, and we're here as stewards of this planet. And we're doing such a shitty job of taking care of animals. It really, truly does break my heart. Um, But this experience really did teach me that the importance of this work, if you want to call it spirituality or not, it's not about becoming that best version of you, period.

[00:29:55] Jisunny Fisher: It's about becoming the truest version of you that knows it's connected with everything and everyone else in this, in this, um, these strings of love, right? This tapestry of love. And My body now knows when it's not welcome in a particular location, it feels it just like Mount Shasta compelled me to come.

[00:30:19] Jisunny Fisher: Um, so for example, right now I'm beginning to feel the compelling desire to move closer to the Pacific Ocean. I'm on the east coast of the United States right now.

[00:30:28] Nikki La Croce: I highly encourage it.

[00:30:32] Jisunny Fisher: Um, not a lot of people agree with me, but. It's just something that I've come to learn and know. Um, these things definitely were once I used to have so many floods of doubts. Now I just know without us, like without a bat of an eye that yes, the land has a spirit and yes, you are either welcome or you're not.

[00:30:54] Jisunny Fisher: Yes, we are this, if you want to call it this personalization of the land. the greater soul, but we are also connected in this tapestry. We're just one big tapestry of love and just different colors and different, you know, areas of the picture. And I just, that's not a question for me.

[00:31:14] Nikki La Croce: I think that's such an incredible, uh, way to think of it too.

[00:31:17] Nikki La Croce: Jisunnie, like the tapestry of love, when you've said it the first time, I was like, lock that in your brain, keep it for later. Um, because I, I agree with you. When you said, you know, it's sort of a hot button topic, I'm not sure specifically which, um, element you were speaking to in that, but when it comes to the idea of potentially, like, you know, people want to identify with, like, you know, their race, their gender, like, these components of our identity, because, like, it helps us, give us, it gives us a sense of, like, Identity and who we are.

[00:31:49] Nikki La Croce: And we've sort of been conditioned to be like, you need to find the right boxes for you to fit in, to be able to like clearly know who you are. And what you said reflects very strongly my belief, which is that it's actually like the absence of those labels that really helps us identify who we are. It's not that those things don't matter.

[00:32:07] Nikki La Croce: Like I think those things. They play a role in our lived experience, so they matter. And, and our experiences are more what dictate our identity, I think, than like the things that are superficial. Um, and, and for anyone who's listening, who has a feeling about like the ways that I completely, you know, empathize and understand that.

[00:32:29] Nikki La Croce: Like, um, you know, racism is real, uh, sexism is real, hate is real. Like, those things are all valid, but I think the desire to identify so closely with these pockets of who we are is actually what generates more hate and, um, puts a barrier up to the ability to be so loving and to really bring us together in that sense of humanity.

[00:32:51] Nikki La Croce: So, like, I totally agree with how you, how you said that. And it's like Thank you for saying it, because I, frankly, like, hot button issue or not, like, I think it needs to be said, and I would rather it be said, than act like that's not really the case, because, shouldn't we You know, at a basic animalistic level, like, want humanity to survive.

[00:33:11] Nikki La Croce: Like, just like, if, if nothing else, Instinctively, like, we should want to survive, probably, all of us. Um, and so, you know, I think bringing it into that with the element of spirituality, It's like that oneness is the thing that I feel is our greatest hope of even like saving what we have here because as you pointed out, we're not doing a great job.

[00:33:33] Jisunny Fisher: No. Everything you said. Amen. Aho. All of it. And that's actually not what I was thinking about when I was talking about the hot topic issue. It's the issue of COVID and how I know it's, it's a really hard time for some people and I'm not discrediting that at all. And, uh, So my name, Jisani, means one who knows beauty.

[00:33:56] Jisunny Fisher: And one of these tests, if you will, that I had to, to pass, um, on my journey was being asked, cause I really truly, truly do believe there is beauty in all things. And I was asked when I was in a deep meditation, okay, is there really truly beauty in things like rape, assault, um, you know, those things that we would say are quote unquote bad.

[00:34:20] Jisunny Fisher: And, you know, My head wanted to answer, No, of course not. Those things aren't beautiful. I feel like my body

[00:34:27] Nikki La Croce: reacted like that. It was like, No.

[00:34:30] Jisunny Fisher: And it is. All of it is so extremely necessary, if you will. It's just like we are here because we want to experience the struggle. What if experiences that really test our resilience, really test our strength, our commitment to love.

[00:34:50] Jisunny Fisher: are things that are there not because they're quote unquote evil or bad, but because they're there to actually really strengthen us. Like when we think about the diamond, it's only created in extreme intense pressure and heat, right? Without those things, we wouldn't have what we value as that particular Whether it's a diamond or other types of crystals.

[00:35:13] Jisunny Fisher: Um, so yes, COVID was extremely hard and yes, we've lost so many people that we love, but when we think about. Like how little we know or like how much we don't know that we don't even know to say that we lost them I think is a very selfish concept. And that's a completely different topic where we could talk about for days.

[00:35:37] Jisunny Fisher: Um, the difference between selflessness and selfishness. But what if those people that transitioned, and Transitioned on purpose, like it was their time to start their new chapter, you know, who are we to say in these like tiny little pea brains in our skulls that we understand what pain truly is all encompassing, um, what that means when we know so little.

[00:36:03] Jisunny Fisher: That was the thing that I didn't want to get too far into because a lot of people, I know it's still very sensitive to them to talk about COVID and losing a lot of loved people, loved members, um, in their lives.

[00:36:14] Nikki La Croce: Well, it's interesting because, um, tomorrow is actually the three year, um, it's been three years tomorrow since we lost my mom, not to COVID, but it was during COVID and, um, it was super unexpected.

[00:36:28] Nikki La Croce: Sort of a way that I found to have some levity with it since then, um, because it was, I mean, as it is when you lose a loved one, it's a, it's a waking nightmare, right? Um, and so at the time I was also leaving an abusive ex and it was like, you know, I, I hear what you're saying in terms of the like, you know, the pain that creates the strength because I wouldn't be who I am if these things didn't happen.

[00:36:52] Nikki La Croce: But if I didn't need those things to happen to have that, would I choose to do them? No, probably not. Like I would, if I could just have it and not have to feel the pain of it, then I would absolutely choose to not have the pain of it. But, you know, when we lost my mom, um, and it was like just before, um, you know, vaccines were coming out and, and the like major rush of like COVID was just not what it was.

[00:37:13] Nikki La Croce: It wasn't peaking anymore. And, I kind of found peace in the fact that like, she passed away very quickly. And I think a little bit if what I've heard about near death experiences is true, and there's a lot of consistency in it, is like, if she's looking down going like, um, I either like, stay here and that's what's happening, or like, I can go there and like, be in this like, one love, like spiritual, you know, essentially euphoria.

[00:37:39] Nikki La Croce: Like, Shit, I would peace out too. Like that doesn't look good down there, you know? Like so, so I think that it, it does help provide that sense of peace to believe in something greater than ourselves, not even tied to religion, but to the fact that like we are, our souls are effectively infinite and that we might have these contracts or make these, you know, conditions for us to show up in, in earth or anywhere else.

[00:38:06] Nikki La Croce: But like you said, we don't really know. What that looks like, and I think for us to find peace, we have to be willing to both, as you've said at the beginning, explore the things that we don't want to explore, but also acknowledge the things that we can't fully understand. And it's like the combination of those things that actually will give us a sense of peace, because you relinquish this idea that you actually have any real control over anything.

[00:38:34] Jisunny Fisher: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it is a human need to have control on the other flip side of it. So when we think of a coin, it's got two sides, right? It's got both the heads and the tails, speaking of most coins. And on the one side, we have this human need to be in control, right? But the other side of it, the opposite side of it is also this human need to be taken care of.

[00:39:01] Jisunny Fisher: And both those human needs as opposing and as opposite as they might seem, they're one in the same thing.

[00:39:08] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:39:09] Jisunny Fisher: The need to be in control and the need to be taken care of are one in the same thing.

[00:39:14] Nikki La Croce: That's really beautiful sentiment. Um, I feel like I'm going to walk away from this evaluating that. Um, so, good thing I have therapy soon.

[00:39:24] Nikki La Croce: Um, what does that look like? I know we have like a limited amount of time left here and I did want to also kind of touch on really leading into the self love aspect of things. It's something that I feel if we learned at a younger age and really understood the value of it, we would probably be able to move through life with a little bit, I don't know if it would be less pain, obviously circumstances still dictate that, but like more kindness to ourselves, more grace, um, for ourselves and for each other.

[00:39:57] Nikki La Croce: What was sort of the turning point for you in recognizing the value of self love, um, in your own life and also then how you extended that into your practice?

[00:40:10] Jisunny Fisher: Great question. It's not one that I've been asked before, so we're going to go with where my heart is going. My practice of self love is actually not something that I'm grandfathered into yet.

[00:40:28] Jisunny Fisher: It's something that does still require practice and I do still notice old patterns coming up. And the lack of self love in my life is because I was brought up like all of us are by flawed human beings who also struggle with self love. If my parents didn't know how to practice self love. They sure as hell don't know how to teach it, which means I didn't know how to teach it.

[00:40:56] Jisunny Fisher: I was never given that blueprint and they did the best they could, right? It's not like they're flawed in that way that they're saying, I'm going to hold love back. It wasn't like that. It was more of. They were brought up a certain way, with certain conditions, and how to behave in a culture that they passed down to me, and in order for me to survive in this human meat suit, in this human body, I needed to follow those rules, and I needed to fit into that culture, otherwise I would be abandoned, or rejected, not accepted.

[00:41:29] Jisunny Fisher: And so, learning that, when I judge someone else. for cutting me off in traffic or I judge someone else for saying something that I would have said differently. And I feel that restriction. I know it's because I still have work I need to do in this, in the self love aspect where I need to learn to accept myself in the way that I am.

[00:41:51] Jisunny Fisher: And I can't think of a greater way where I've had to really practice self love than in my really close relationships where, you know, this attachment bonds that we have, that we form from the, the parent child relationship that carries over into our adult relationships. I'm really beginning to learn that not being able to express myself authentically, or not being able to just sing when I want in the elevator or say something in a certain way without worrying about what they're going to be thinking of me, is something that requires a lot of practice.

[00:42:27] Jisunny Fisher: And unless I can do it for myself, I really can't create the space or hold the space for other people to do it. And I think that's where we sort of are like blind mice leading other blind mice sometimes. Yes. And, and I think there's no other way, right? And I think that's the juxtaposition that I find myself in now.

[00:42:50] Jisunny Fisher: As a trained psychologist, people look, quote unquote, up to me to help them to create the space or give them the tools. But that looking up to creates the state where they disempower themselves, where they are, you know, um, releasing any discernment practice that they can be using or giving themselves the permission to know their own rules, their own values.

[00:43:18] Jisunny Fisher: Or just trusting in the, in the infinite intelligence, not just within your body, but within your heart. And I think the juxtaposition position for me, where I find myself now is yes, as a licensed psychologist, people look up to me, but do I really want to create that space where someone else is looking to me for their answers, where it's doesn't work that way?

[00:43:40] Jisunny Fisher: And there is like this blurry ethical line where, you know, like if you are someone's. therapist or psychologist, you're not supposed to share your personal experiences. You don't connect with them on social media. And it's, it's almost creating this facade that your therapist or your counselor is somehow some way better than you, but it's not.

[00:44:01] Jisunny Fisher: And we keep perpetuating this notion that we need other people for answers. When we have the answers, we have to do the, our own inner work. Yeah. And so I constantly find myself looking at this outdated map. It's not mine, but it's familiar, which is why I keep pulling it out. Then a lot of times I'll have to put it away and go, Nope, this is the one I want.

[00:44:22] Nikki La Croce: You're like, that's not where I want to go.

[00:44:27] Jisunny Fisher: Or, you know, the outdated map doesn't show me the barrier that's actually really there. Totally.

[00:44:32] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I think that's such a great way of framing it too. And I, I Really appreciate calling out your position as a psychologist and recognizing that, um, dynamic that happens.

[00:44:45] Nikki La Croce: I have an amazing therapist who I've been working with for over five years now and I've witnessed like her growth as a therapist with me through the conversations we have, but like I know virtually nothing about her. Like,

[00:45:00] Jisunny Fisher: on, like, an

[00:45:01] Nikki La Croce: ethical level, I really appreciate that because I also had an unethical couples therapist with my ex who, like, crossed all of the boundaries, right?

[00:45:08] Nikki La Croce: I think that, you know, it's It must be really challenging in that role because it's basically because of the ethical conundrum that it would put you in to be very exposed to a client and and like what they might perceive if they're knowing more about your life. It kind of feels or sounds like it might feel sometimes like you can't even be fully authentic even though like you're showing up as authentically as you can in the way that you can given the restrictions that have to be in place.

[00:45:39] Nikki La Croce: But like there's this part of you that's like yeah, but that's like not all of me Is that am I correct in sort of interpreting it that way?

[00:45:45] Jisunny Fisher: Yes, yes. And the question that I put myself in a space to constantly ask whenever I'm with clients is, what is the purpose? What is the intention of the space that I'm holding?

[00:45:56] Jisunny Fisher: Is it for me or is it for my client? And if it's for my client, there are certain stories that I know I can share that really does create amazing breakthroughs. And I know sometimes that human part of me wants to overshare and I just have to hold her back and rein her back and say, no, this space is not for me.

[00:46:11] Jisunny Fisher: It's for that client.

[00:46:13] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate that. And I know, um, we're, we're closing in on time here. And so I just, you know, I feel like this is such a valuable conversation. I would love to have you back at some point to talk again more and just expand on this. Um, but I, the last thing I wanted to touch on if we can for a second here is, um, related to what you said about your self love journey and how, you know, yeah.

[00:46:35] Nikki La Croce: You kind of felt like you've had to hold back in your life from being really truly who you are, showing up the ways that felt genuine to you and, and, um, organic to you. And it was a note that I had made from our last conversation, which was the idea of self expression and like, what can we do to, to really make sure that we're showing up for ourselves with, in a way that that self expression is aligned to who we are and where we are on our journey.

[00:47:01] Nikki La Croce: So right now in where you are on your journey, like what is the. You know, an example of your self-expression that you're giving attention to that maybe you hadn't previously, and like how, how that's helping you move forward.

[00:47:13] Jisunny Fisher: I love that. So one of the things that I do on my pers in my personal work is understanding what my current values are and they shift as I grow.

[00:47:24] Jisunny Fisher: Um, a value that I hadn't noticed before that came up in the, I would say in the last eight months or so, is the value of holding things sacred. And so the self expression piece for me isn't like giving myself permission to say mean things or things that are just coming up and having no filter whatsoever.

[00:47:42] Jisunny Fisher: That's not self expression. For me, self expression is being aware of who I am, what my values are, and acting from that place in a way where I'm not letting other people's perceptions of me filter how I show up. So that, the aspect of sacredness for me is holding the Base sacred. Whether when I'm meditating and really intentionally keeping a sacred, or if I'm going on a hike and really holding the space to keep that, that hike sacred where I'm connecting to those things beyond the veil, beyond the five senses, is something that's been extremely important to me in the last eight months.

[00:48:17] Jisunny Fisher: So self-expression is about, you know, the self-awareness, knowing who you are. What your values are and not allowing other people's perceptions of you to filter But also not just like willy nilly sharing whatever comes up.

[00:48:29] Nikki La Croce: Gsunni, thank you so much. This was such an insightful conversation I feel like you're a wealth of knowledge and insight and and just you know Authenticity you show up really exactly as you are And in a way that is really helpful, um, you know, for me as a host to be able to witness and guide my own practice moving forward, but also for listeners to really be able to tap into who they are.

[00:48:52] Nikki La Croce: Thank you for being here with me and I really appreciate your time.

[00:48:55] Jisunny Fisher: Thank you so much for having me. This was so beautiful. So magical.

[00:48:58] Nikki La Croce: Gang, thanks so much for joining me for this week's episode. I just appreciate your support and it means so So much to me that you tune in week after week. The best thing that you can do to help spread the word about the podcast is if this episode resonated with you, go ahead and share it with somebody else, wherever you listen to your podcasts, or you can go ahead and subscribe to my YouTube channel and share it from there.

[00:49:18] Nikki La Croce: I also really appreciate it if you can leave a review on Apple podcasts, because that really helps give people a better understanding of what the show's about and what you appreciate about the conversations that we're having. And until then, I'll catch you on the flip side.