Facing Shame and Embracing Self-Love with Matt Gerlach

[00:00:00] Nikki La Croce: I'm so glad we're talking again, Matt. It was such a pleasure to meet you when we first spoke and I'm really excited about who you are and what you're doing. Um, when you first reached out to me, I, You know, I get, I'm very fortunate. I get a lot of messages from people who want to share their stories. And I've learned the importance of being discerning about what feels like it fits and what doesn't.

And I think so much of what you shared right out of the gate about your journey, navigating, um, Healing and what was so important to you to really become who you are and feel confident in who you are and to move through life in a healthier way was not only inspiring, but also resonated a lot with who I am and my story.

And even though the. Circumstances can be very different. I think there was a lot of shared sentiment in really taking the time to explore ourselves and to heal parts of ourselves that maybe we had ignored. And I think that that is going to make for a really dynamic and engaging conversation today. So welcome to the show and thanks for joining me.

[00:01:05] Matt Gerlach: Thank you for having me and I totally agree. So I'm honored to be here, excited to speak with you and, uh, Just thank you very much for your interest in my life.

[00:01:14] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Well, I remember when I was starting to be more intentional about recording more frequently and telling my wife and I was like, I'm actually, I'm like, there's so many people who really want to share their stories.

And she kind of jokingly said to me, but it was also like, People want to talk about themselves, Nikki. Like, of course, they're reaching out to you. And I was like, you know, I, I think it's really fun to be able to be the person that invites that in to say, you know, your story matters because it does. And I thought we could kind of jump off with a little bit of how you shared your story when we first, connected, which is that you really came from a place of, High performance, uh, intentionality and driving your career in the direction that you wanted, but that was.

If I recall correctly, that was pretty abruptly halted, by the buildup of burnout and a lot of anxiety and other feelings that you were having that ultimately contributed to you sort of taking a step back and looking at your life and being like, Whoa, is this how I want to be living? And is this, I mean, I think a little bit from our first conversation, is this like really who I am and how I'm showing up in the world?

So could you share a little bit about sort of the onset of your journey into bettering your wellbeing?

[00:02:29] Matt Gerlach: Yeah, um, so it happened in 2017. I was living in New York at the time. I was in my first, really good relationship with a mature person, you know, I mean, just like my first adult relationship. It all started kind of there. That was requiring me to grow. And I firmly believe that you can't love somebody else more than you love yourself. And, like, underneath Everything else I was really seeing that I was not really in love with myself at all.

So I was still very, very like surface level at the time. I was, you know, starting to notice that like my feelings were getting a lot more intense, but I was, you know, I just, I never, it's crazy to say this now, but I never knew that emotional health mattered. I had asthma and allergies as a child really bad.

And my dad always just said that, you know, they're so prevalent, you know, for you that you can't be missing school every time you're not feeling well. So like, I didn't realize it at the time,

but that was really setting the foundation you're supposed to still function when you feel horrible.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, So I had been laid off of a job like I just didn't know that stress like You just keep taking whatever gets thrown at you. You know, I just gotten laid off the job I think I was always good at gratitude and you know realized like it could have been worse. I wasn't in a bad financial situation but I I was driven by scarcity.

I was very worried about making enough money. And, um, I started a business, a consulting business in the field that I was in at the time, baby product sales, and really was pushing myself towards success in a way that just, I'd never had put myself under that sort of professional stress before. And then at the same time, my partner and I decided it would be good for us to move from New York to Los Angeles.

And I just. I just started worrying out of control. I don't think I could describe it any other way. I was just worried about everything and, um, I was feeling horrible and it took me to the doctor and, um, she found that I had high blood pressure. I was pretty shocked at that because my grandparents didn't have high blood pressure, so not that I wasn't that knowledgeable, but I remember going to the doctor always thinking, wow, mine is like really low.

You know, it was like one 10 over 80 or something, one 10 over 70, whatever. And then this time it was like one 40 over 90. And then, um, she diagnosed me with hypertension and also, um, depression. And I just completely started obsessing about it. I worried so much about my health. And the doctor started me on Lexapro and it was the wrong medication for me.

Just to be clear, like when you're taking a medication like that, it often does take several tries before they find the correct one. So it wasn't like a complete anomaly, but it made me feel so much worse. And I, um, just couldn't handle it. And all of this kept happening and building up more and more and more.

And then on the day my partner and I moved to LA, we landed at LAX and a few hours later, I went to the hospital thinking I was having a heart attack.

That was really the beginning of, of my, uh, I mean, of my journey to improve my life.

[00:05:36] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Well, I really appreciate the way that you pulled that together and starting in your childhood too, because I, I know for my own experience as well, that it, I think especially when you're raised in a home, if you have the good fortune to be raised in a home where you have loving parents who are there for you and they show up and they, you know, meet your needs in a lot of ways.

And especially I think if you have parents who are, um, in general, like my parents are baby boomers. The way that they saw meeting our needs was like giving us the things that they knew that we needed when it came to tangible things or quality but the thing that I feel we got a little bit slighted on as a generation, and I'll speak to millennials, um, because that's the most conversation that I have with people about this, but because they weren't emotionally aware enough, um, to your point, like, oh, emotional and mental health are like really important.

Not just sort of these sidebars that you occasionally have to pay attention to when you're feeling a certain way, but they're really at the epicenter of all of it. And so I think when. You first are confronted with the need to change, having to kind of go back and investigate a little bit about like where the origin of those beliefs came from can be daunting.

It can be challenging. And I think for me, and I'm curious if you felt this way, I had a hard time at first, like, Yeah. really allowing myself to step into the reality that even if my parents were good parents, and even if they did everything that they could have done and should have done, that that didn't mean that like I necessarily got everything that I needed because they didn't know how to provide it.

They didn't even know. Maybe in some ways that it was needed. So do you feel like that is also something that you had to come to terms with as you were getting into this realization that there was something bigger that was affecting you?

[00:07:23] Matt Gerlach: Yeah. And I think that, I mean, while your story and my story certainly aren't unique, we hear a lot about the stories that were so undeniably bad.

And I don't want to say that's easier to diagnose, but it is. Like where we're at, you know, where there is a situation where the house is filled with love and parents who are trying their best. It is a whole different level of difficulty to admit that like people's best might have still left you needing more.

And, um, that was a huge Part of my journey that was arguably the hardest part of my journey, and it really was through yoga I'm a yoga teacher certified yoga teacher, and I had a highly philosophical yoga teacher training teacher and We just learned so much about like ancient philosophy, and it made sense And I just was like wow it's worked for you know tens of thousands of years or whatever. There's got to be something to this.

And she just introduced us to this concept of both. Simple, you know, both things can be true. Like you and your partner could both be right. You know, like you're wrong. And that honestly, I wish I had like some crazy, like, you know, story, but that really, maybe the simplicity of it just really changed it for me.

But I realized that both could be true.

[00:08:37] Nikki La Croce: Well, I love that concept too. And you've said it in a way that I haven't really. heard it described as the concept of both. I definitely say, you know, both things can be true, right? But I don't know that I was really thoughtful about how that sort of exists as a concept in so many ways for us.

Also, I feel like when you are I think when you're going on a journey like you've described for yourself, and I look back at my own, there is this coming of ageness to it when you think about sort of like the books we read and things like that. And often when we consider sort of that, that phrasing, it's like, oh, coming of ages, you know, you're young and you're growing into it and you're figuring it out.

But I feel like because there has been such a tremendous amount of proliferation of content around mental health around your holistic well being that we're sort of in this second stage of life as adults navigating what it means to find ourselves because that what we did when we were younger in the years where that we're sort of formulating who we are, how we want to show up in the world.

There wasn't all the information that we have now. And so we're kind of being tasked with the, um, need to reestablish ourselves almost because we went through life thinking, this is what I'm going to do. This is how I'm going to be. This is what I'm going to pursue. Only to, I think in some variety or another have that swept away or brought to our attention that that's like not really what we're needing. And then really having to own that not only do we want something different, but that we, if we want something different, then we actually have to start making real meaningful change to live a life that's more aligned to who we are.

And I think the way that you speak to yoga and how that impacted you is really valuable because it can show up in a lot of ways for people. And I think a big part of it, as you're sharing, is like being receptive to like what comes from those experiences.

[00:10:40] Matt Gerlach: Yeah, I totally, I mean, I totally love the way you said that.

And I think our needs have changed dramatically in our generation from our parents. Um, in a way, I mean, I think that that's, you know, what we talk about when we hear numbers that are like, you know, this much change happened in X amount of years. Now. A million times that change has happened in the past two years.

I mean, I think that just the practicality of living, um, I have learned like a big part of my, um, I've been a big part of my upbringing was a financial, traumatically situation that left me really overly concerned about money and like prioritizing tomorrow over today.

So I've had to do a lot of work on that,

but, um,

I do value safety in a way that I know is. is on the, you know, the far end of feeling safe and our ability to buy a home now, our ability to just like even consider retirement. I remember, like, I think my grandparents were like wanting to retire at 55. Now me, we're going to be lucky if we retire at like, 75. You know, obviously the world has changed though.

So, um, you, yeah, I mean our needs are changing and mental health has become a real thing because we are stressed all the time unless we're doing things to mitigate that.

[00:11:53] Nikki La Croce: Right. Well, I'm curious from your perspective, like, so you, you spoke to sort of like this financial wound. Um, I'll call it, I have, I have one as well, and I'm still kind of working on the origins of it and, and untangling that mess for myself.

But I'm curious, uh, separate of that, do you feel like in your home there was like, an undercurrent of stress that like maybe you were picking up on as well. Cause I know related to finances, I could feel that in my home might not have been able to name it back then. I can definitely name it now, but I think there was also, you know, my dad just retired.

Like his last day of work was last week and he was so nervous to do it, but it's like embrace this. This is like why you've been working, you know? So it's, it's kind of interesting to see how, um, You know, because he hasn't really had the tools to like help him cope with stress over the years that even like something that's such a monumental, good, positive thing can feel stressful.

[00:12:53] Matt Gerlach: Well, we don't know if we're going to live to be 110 years old and only plan to live 80, you know, right? Yeah, I think that is a real. A real conundrum that we're facing. I mean, in a good way, you know, that we get to enjoy life so much longer, but yeah, I mean, I think for me, I mean, I grew up in a very stressful home and I'm just a huge empath, empath.

And I just, I feel the stress of other people. I pick up on things and that certainly made me a very stressed out child. Um, and yeah, I mean, a big part of that story about, you know, the financial trauma is just, it's a generational trauma situation that I think a lot of families have, you know, I mean, um, Mine was kind of backwards, actually.

My grandparents who grew up in the depression, like who were really, really affected by it actually became so much more generous and, and, um, just loose with their purse strings as they got older because they were tired of worrying about the price of a loaf of bread. But, um, on the other end, my grandmother who was more wealthy was very.

spent her money in a way that was, you know, just like not, not enjoying it. She saved everything for a day that was never coming. And I mean, you think about that like as a child, I mean, of course it's going to affect you, you know, when you grow up for 20 years, seeing people never enjoy their lives to the fullest, like, yeah, that leaves a mark.

[00:14:13] Nikki La Croce: Well, I have a question for you. So growing up, I think being a female, I feel like there is At least for sure, like being the age that I am, there was more openness to me expressing my feelings, um, both as a child, but also just as I was growing up being that like women are typically, you know, sort of the more emotional creatures as we've, you projected into society, right?

And a lot of men are restricted from exhibiting their emotions and told not to express them or, um, don't even confront them at all. And I'm curious, and I think I recall from our original conversation tapping into this a little bit, but do you feel like there was a significant awareness that you gained as you were coming to this next stage of your life where you were really focusing on your well being that you had to confront like a lot of those subconscious, um, programmings that were kind of fed to you growing up about like to be masculine or to be a man means that like you're not expressing yourself or, um, you're not strong if you do express yourself.

[00:15:23] Matt Gerlach: You know, I think that, um, that message and just like the identity trauma, not expressing myself is kind of like woven into everything. I think there wasn't like one, like everything ties to your identity. So it's like that kind of like spilled over into so many areas where like, as I've learned to love, My needs, you know, that's an area that I've gotten to love myself more as I've learned to set boundaries, you know, as I've learned to, um, just what I enjoy, all of those things have helped me become who I am and learn who I am for the first time.

Um, but in terms of your question about like emotions, I mean, I don't know hardly any men that are my age, just for the record at this time, I'm, I'm 41 years old and I don't know many men my age that grew up with, with, you know, parents. saying that it was, you know, normal or that they should be expressing their emotions to the way that women, um, might, you know, might've been more encouraged.

I remember growing up just like when I would get in fights with girls, my mom babysat. And like, I was very, very like admonished for like, for, for like having my feelings hurt in a situation. And then like acting, you know, like, you know, in a way that was, um, not really like, Diminishing my feelings. Like that was never really something that, that I was allowed to do.

And I think it really, I mean, that's really, I think what happened when the hospital stay happened. I mean, this was my life sending me wake up calls and it was just 33 years at the time of like, not really feeling my feelings, um, One, you know, I mean, I would drink with friends. That's a part of my history, you know, um, being with friends drunk and really like that being the only time that my emotions really came out.

And as I've like really started to open up about that and like stop hating myself for my imperfections, I have seen a pattern that a lot of people, I think at least people that I know have a tendency to when they're holding their emotions and they let them out at a time when they're, um, when they're numb enough to let them out that they're not.

You know, trying to judge themselves so poorly. But yeah, I mean, I think men in general have been, you know, pretty, I mean, pretty even self encouraged, um, to keep our emotions to ourselves. And I think that's really the place we're at right now is that men are learning. I mean, men and women are learning that, you know, You know, men's emotions are no better kept in than anybody's.

And we all have equal emotions and needs and sensitivities.

[00:17:57] Nikki La Croce: And

[00:17:58] Matt Gerlach: I'm a highly sensitive person. So I learned to love my emotions and needs. And I just like get really, um, like when I'm in therapy or something and I, I can't, I mean, I announced to the room, I'm feeling something, like I'm starting to cry a little bit.

And I'm like, but I'm fine. I mean, I'm good. Like I want you to know that that's like activating something and I want you to help me figure out what's going on here.

[00:18:18] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Well, I love that you shared that too, because I feel like that's something that I absolutely too, too. I'm like, Oh, it's happening. Hold on one second.

Like, let me, let me, let me process this, but it's, it's sort of the indication of like, Oh, I'm, I'm giving myself the space to actually feel it and embrace that sensation because even, and I think this is a very much a gender aside sort of thing where especially like you pointed out if you're not liking yourself or not liking things about yourself, I feel like in my experience, that's when I feel the most inclined to hold it in because I don't want there to be, I guess I don't really want anybody else to be witness to that and to have perception of that because I'm already shaming myself enough sitting in like the frustration or the anxiety of my own circumstance.

And I, I know that, um, when I was going through this really hard time in my life before I left my ex, it was becoming more and more obvious to me how disconnected I was from myself because I was numbing. So I didn't have to confront like all of the pain that I was feeling. to the point that I didn't even realize I was feeling the pain until I like stepped back and really forced myself to acknowledge the the reality of the circumstances that were happening around me.

And I think when you speak to your experience being in the hospital we really do have these moments at a crossroads where it's like You're being told that this is not okay, and you now have to be the person who makes the choice for yourself about if you're actually going to go down the path that leads you to a place where you feel more fulfilled and more integrated, and more, as you said, at the beginning of this conversation, self love, which I feel like is, is Such a key to the actual, like, unlocking of those things that I didn't understand until I was in the midst of it and being like, Oh my God, like, I actually don't even think I can say that I like myself.

That's so uncomfortable to acknowledge because I, I think I just was living my life with the subtle self loathing internalized, but not displaying that to people, but it came out in the way that I would interact, particularly in potential relationships where I felt desperate and like I needed to be needed and instead of thinking, well, what are my needs?

What do I need to fulfill? So I love how you phrased it. Like, I'm learning to like, love my needs and understand those things and love my feelings and let them be there because so much of what we do is defer the feelings because we're trying to manage the situation. And I don't know that I've come out of any significant circumstances in my life where I've deferred it.

I'd been like, yes, that was the correct long term solution, right? Like, eventually like it comes to a head and we're going to have to. really face what it is that we're standing up against and decide how we move forward from there. Um, because all of those other things keep you stuck or possibly even regressing.

[00:21:14] Matt Gerlach: Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm appreciative you said it like that. And I think it's so true. I mean, we need to face the feelings eventually, but, you know, I've had, I've sort of had like an epiphany lately and like, I've just like, there's, you know, like the more that I'm working with. Clients and you know, helping other people.

Um, we all have to kind of like hit our, our moment at our time, you know, I mean, and it's been really clear. There's plenty of things about my life that people have been through that I'm sure, you know, are like, Oh, like he should stop doing that now, or he needs to go this direction. But like, there's a lot of things.

Like we just can't see everything about our own lives. I think, you know, the best we can do is take feedback along the way. Um, I'm like the hugest reader. I think, I mean, and I think you can listen to podcasts, you can audio books or whatever, but like, there's so much wisdom to be gleaned from other people's mistakes.

And, um, I think a lot of people, I mean, that's what these books are like 20 little things that might save you 10 years, you know, millions of dollars, thousands of dollars, whatever.

[00:22:20] Nikki La Croce: Right.

[00:22:21] Matt Gerlach: So I try to learn the best I can from others. But we're all on our own journey.

And I think I'm curious to know your relationship with shame and just like, if you've made your way through to the other side, kind of halfway, because I find now, I still have a lot of work to do on this, but like the least I, the less I judge myself, the more, the more beautiful this becomes.

[00:22:45] Nikki La Croce: Oh gosh, that really hits.

[00:22:47] Matt Gerlach: It's like so much like none of us are perfect. When we grow up with trauma, I mean, sadly, like, you know, it's, it's our caretakers that are telling us we're not perfect enough. I mean, now that I'm like old, like I look at like a child, like if I was saying like some of these things to a child, that's eight years old, like I would expect them to grow up, like hating themselves.

[00:23:09] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Yeah, that's um, that's like a really loaded question at this point. You couldn't possibly know how much so because it's literally like the last couple of weeks has been like doing shadow work around shame and like really poking at that. I agree with you for sure that like there is relevance in like our caretaking and the expectations or, or the delivery of feedback from parents or how they, um, you know, treat us.

And like you said, you know, you can grow up in a house where there's love and everything, but I think you can still feel expectation. I'm much like you where like, I'm very empathic. So like, I feel the feelings of other people too. And I understand more now how like the way we respond as a child is protective.

And a lot of times what we will do is if our parent does something that makes us feel unsafe, whether we're like actually unsafe or it's like our, our. brain thinking, this is unsafe, I need to protect myself. Like you've gotten reprimanded, you feel bad about something. Um, that we internalize that as I've done something wrong and we take the, the accountability away from our parents.

Because we know that those people are supposed to take care of us. So for us to function and still maintain like a sense of connection to our parent, we will take that on so we don't perceive them as unsafe. And I've heard this several times in listening to things and reading different things and just having this recognition of like, okay, so what is mine to really hold on to?

Versus what is it that I've been holding on to for other people? And at this point, I'm also, as the words were coming out of my mouth, I'm thinking, well, none of it's really important to hold on to. But like, what do I have to work through that's mine? Versus what do I just need to acknowledge, accept, and allow to be what it is, but not feel like it's my responsibility to heal?

And so, I would say I'm like, On the journey of navigating through the shame, but also fully aware of the fact that the shame is the biggest thing that's holding me back in my life right now. Particularly, it was absolutely in relationships. I, I know that in retrospect now, especially being in a healthy relationship, but both, but like related to my career, I, I was constantly doing the thing that I thought I should do to get to the next step, and it was fine and it worked and whatever, but I was never really fulfilled.

Now that I'm in a place where like, I'm in charge of my own destiny, and if I'm going to be doing my thing full time, then I really need to like step it up for myself. When you feel like an internal resistance to going to that next stage, because you feel like you're not good enough, or you think people don't care, or you're just like, whatever list of reasons I can use to validate why I'll stay stuck.

My therapist literally said to me last week, maybe shift the way that you're thinking about it from like, I need to feel ashamed about my shame. to investigating the shame with like, think about why, like what purpose it's supposed to be serving you. And the way that she described it was like, you know, like, Try to like ask your little saboteur, like what it thinks it's doing.

And I felt like that was like a really good way to get me sort of out of the, I'm this, I'm that, and be like, what does this thing seem like it's doing for me? Or what do I believe that it's protecting me from? And when I started to look at it through that lens and really consider like, well, Why am I holding on to this shame?

Because really it's just a barrier to realizing my potential because I've convinced myself over the years and this is what I'm untangling that like the perception that other people have of me is the essence or, or like actually who I am instead of coming from a place of self love where it's like, I know myself, I trust that I have integrity and that my intentions are true and that I live by the values that I really find to be important for me, but I think when you're in a place where you're aware of it and you know you need to do something, that there can be a little bit of friction between like, the acknowledgement that it's there and the actual getting past that hurdle.

And I'm like, mid air on the hurdle right now.

[00:27:35] Matt Gerlach: There's a lot of friction sometimes.

[00:27:37] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think that what's really, um, interesting about shame too, is that I've witnessed it a lot more, um, reflected in conversations I've had with my dad, since losing my mom. Because, I imagine he probably connected with her on certain things that he wouldn't share with us because why you don't like really need to.

And so I think in more vulnerable moments now, I'm able to, whether he's communicating it outwardly or not, be more witness to it and also be able to look at that and say, okay, like this was modeled to me in some way. And I don't know where you got this from. how it developed for you, but trying to like, you know, ask some questions about like, well, what was it like for you growing up?

And he did say to me, because like I said, he just retired and my grandfather just turned 97 and he's like, still pretty with it. So he's like, well, what's your dad going to do that? And he's retired. I'm like, he just retired. Like, let the man like breathe for a second. And. My dad's like, yeah, I had to like tell him to stop because I just, you know, I'm not him.

And he said, but growing up, it was like, nothing was ever good enough. Got an A, why didn't you get an A plus? And I'm like, and now we get to the root of our family's historic shame. Right? You start to sort of see these patterns. And I think to your point, getting older, you're very, if you're doing the work, you're, you're, It's very, I think, typical, at least in my experience, I'm curious if you felt this way, to have that moment of reckoning, like the self awareness is there, and you're like, I can rationalize and intellectualize this all day long, but now that I have to do something about it, there's like a whole different level of like deconstructing and, and evolution that has to come from that.

Do you feel like there's, um, typically for you, like this, aha, recognition, rational awareness moment, and then you're like, Okay, now the work begins.

[00:29:31] Matt Gerlach: You know, it's funny, like, because this is like a new thing over the past few years where it's been like, I'm noticing a lot of the silly habits I grew up around, like my parents nervous tics about like, wipe down the shower and stuff like that.

And, you know, and so I'm like, Oh my gosh, we all have our things, you know, you might have grown up where it's like, you know, the refrigerator door being open was the biggest problem. Me might have been the water on the counter. And I noticed this very specific list of like irritations that are, um, passed down for generations. I mean, it's been interesting just to go over the past, like few weeks I've been really like thinking about this and just how unrattled I get these days. There is not much that really comes my way that rattles me. And I mean, I can't remember the last time I really have like been upset about something, you know, like the other day, like I noticed this, like I was kind of crappy a tiny bit.

I know how to give myself what I need better and advocate for myself. Kind of like getting close to dinnertime. And I just was like, let me go outside and wash my car real quick. I just do a quick wash for my car. It wasn't like a big thing. But, and the main, and then my partner and I will talk about this.

You know, we really share our feelings and like what we learn and give each other information. Like, hi, like, you might have noticed I was a tiny bit flustered about, like, this had happened. And there was a legitimate thing that, completely went upside down that day. That doesn't happen hardly ever, I would say.

But it was a pretty big thing. And I, like, acknowledged to him, like, you know, Matt, two years ago, would be really upset right now. And then when I came inside from the car washing, I was like, you know, thank you for letting me like, just have my moment. I went from, you know, a zero, like in a one to 10 scale, I went from like a one to like, a three, maybe.

And went outside and got some fresh air, moved around, came inside and was back to my one. I think that when we heal and do the work, you start to realize like you are responsible for your own life. And that's what my therapist, my therapist, my last therapist really spent a lot of time like saying to me was like, you know, you're an adult now.

And I didn't, sometimes it was annoying to hear because it wasn't quite clear at the time, but now I get what she was saying. I guess I wasn't fully where I'm at now, where I like, it's my, like you, you can set your own boundaries and I don't, I mean, I almost want to say they come with consequences, but that's fine.

I mean, I've started saying this about like, Doing like, especially boundary work, like boundary work. Like it's so hard to set boundaries. Oh my God. I look at the things that I, like the other day I had to set a big one and I was like, Oh my God, like, you know, four years ago, something literally one one hundredth of this would have had me like, not okay.

Right, right. And, um, but like, as you said, a boundary. There's an immediate payoff because you're getting yourself out of a situation that you need to get out of.

[00:32:24] Nikki La Croce: And then

[00:32:25] Matt Gerlach: the long term payoff is like you're building a muscle too. So like this all you learn to advocate for yourself, but you don't know that until you like go do the work to learn that this is within your control after you've grown up thinking it's not.

[00:32:41] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. And you're pointing to something that I think is really interesting. valuable to acknowledge. And that's the, the way that setting a boundary is advocating for yourself. And just because you're advocating for your needs to be met doesn't mean that you don't care about somebody else's either. And I think that's where, um, you know, that's part of why it can be hard to set a boundary that we don't want to disappoint people, or we don't want to make somebody feel bad.

And a lot of times. The consequence of not setting the boundary can be far worse than the consequence of setting the boundary because I spent over a decade abandoning myself because I wasn't setting boundaries or if I said I was going to set boundaries with my ex, I wouldn't uphold them. And I, I know that it is one thing to set the boundary and it's another thing to uphold it.

And I think that there is also in that same vein, an opportunity to vocalize or like express a boundary that's needed. And if you're in a relationship, whether that's romantic or otherwise with somebody, and you have a boundary that you need to set, you can express that. And the other person hopefully either receives that and it works for them, but they also are entitled to bring forth a boundary that they might have that will require one or both of you to compromise a little bit, which I think is also something that when it comes to boundary setting can be sometimes challenging to navigate when you have, you're like, I can't, you must only consider my boundaries, I'm considering my boundaries, we're all good. That's not how you have a fulfilling relationship, I would imagine. But I think what you're saying in terms of how that dynamic works with your partner too, is not necessarily around boundaries, but in the way you communicate with each other is that it. The first job that we have as that adult to advocate for ourselves is express what it is that is bothering us or what we need and give the other person a chance to respond and have a respectful dialogue about it.

Even if sometimes there's, you know, varying degrees of elevation in how we respond to it emotionally. Um, what you described. in taking the time away for a couple of minutes is something that my wife and I value tremendously. And we've actually come up with a word for it, and it is completely nonsense, but I think that you might appreciate it.

I don't know. Um, it's hognoggle, and it's because it's a word that you can't take seriously when somebody says it. So it's like, if we start to feel ourselves like escalating in a moment, it's like, The word for us is hognoggle when it's like, we just, I can't express myself, but I got to get out of here for a minute and we're, we're going to come back to this one.

Like the nervous system regulates again, and I find it to be really helpful to like, have it be something that's playful so that you're, you're kind of, um, neutralizing the emotional overload in that moment also.

[00:35:49] Matt Gerlach: I love that. I have two things on this boundary. I can't wait to like, I mean, I've just been like thinking this whole time about like this because my mind's going at a million miles a minute about it because boundaries seriously have been like the hardest thing.

And I think they are hard for just about everybody in the world. Um, and, um, just real quick on what you said, you know, I'm, it was Brené Brown that really talks about this a lot. And we've taken like a piece of that, kind of like the Hognoggle thing and started to say, like, you know, what's your bandwidth right now?

Like the dog needs to get fed. Like I have to take a shower still or whatever. And it's something like that. It's something not that big. Hey, what's your bandwidth? And you might be the dog and like, It works. I mean, we don't get to that situation where we're like elevated like you're disrespecting me. No, I mean, I'm clearly saying like, there's an agreement.

This is my job tonight, you know, whatever it might be like, you know, and I'm just wondering if you would be able to help out. Like, I would be able to help you out if I had extra bandwidth. It's not a pride situation. No. Yeah.

[00:36:50] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. That's a really good point. And I know what you're talking about with Brown too, because she said, it's not always about, you know, giving a hundred percent, I think people, my parents always used to say, sometimes you give 90, sometimes you give 10 and you try to like help fill in the gaps for people.

But the way Brene Brown expresses it is sometimes you might both be at 50 percent and then together you have to figure out how to get the things done anyway. So I love that that's how you and your partner communicate, because I think that's a reflection of, as you said, like the responsibility that you're both taking in the relationship and also that.

You're communicating expectations. And I think so many people in relationships that I witness are pissed when their partner doesn't do something. And I'm like, did you explain to them that that's what you needed? Well, no. And it's like, okay. So I mean, you're, you're mad about something without, Having tried to navigate the circumstance with more intention to get the outcome that you want anyway, so sorry, I want you to continue.

But like I definitely that all resonates with me, particularly around the bandwidth side of it.

[00:37:54] Matt Gerlach: I was gonna be a whole episode. And I mean, given that 5050 example there, you know what you do when you're both have low bandwidth? You order takeout, you don't use that night to decide you're going to paint the baseboard to the kitchen, you know, like, I'm serious.

But like, I used to be that person, like Renee Brown gave this example, she was like, okay, so we were having people over for dinner. It was like two o'clock and I was like, okay, I'm going to go to Home Depot and buy something to paint the porch. And her husband was like, no, you're not going to do that. Like, and I mean, what a funny, I mean, I was that person that was like, you know, there's four hours I can do, you know, Six days full of work and we're going to have a brain.

No, we are not. And, um, yeah, I mean, and I think it becomes like humorous once you start kind of going back to what you said earlier, you start to like be able to laugh at your, you know, your, your, I don't want to say flaws, but I guess the, the idiosyncrasies of like the way that your brain works.

[00:38:46] Nikki La Croce: Right, right.

But can I kind

[00:38:47] Matt Gerlach: of boundary thing real quick? Like,

[00:38:49] Nikki La Croce: Please, we don't have to be quick either. Just go after it.

[00:38:52] Matt Gerlach: It's like, you know, um, I don't really have a lot of, relationships in my life that are, I mean, I don't really have any relationships in my life anymore that aren't, like, really filling.

And that doesn't happen over time, but that is, like, the work of the boundary cleaning out situation. I recently met a new friend, and I like her to be clear. Um, but like, I am somebody, and I say this to any new friend, really, like, I'm 41 years old. If we have dinner plans on a Friday night, And your Friday was like stressful.

You can cancel with me an hour before, even a half hour before, like, I am so fine staying home. I'm you're not ruining my night. Like most of my friends prefer to be home anyway. And, um, and then she was like, yeah, but I try not to, you know, so like we just had kind of even a loose conversation about this. I probably won't be flaking on her because I think that like, from like what she shared back with me, like It's important to her to keep plans. I'll also be a little more careful. Like with you, maybe I'll make plans knowing that I need, knowing there's an escape plan if I need to.

Yeah, yeah, totally. Number B or friend letter B, you know, I'm going to be more courteous. So it's like, I love what you were saying about boundaries aren't one sided. And I think that's a big part of it. There's not situations in my life where big boundaries are needed.

I don't think there's anything that you could tell me that you would prefer I don't do around you. That would surprise me, like, because we're aligned in most of the way that we live, but, you know, if you're, I'm just making this up, but if you're dating somebody who has completely different financial, um, values in a relationship than you do, it is going to be a rocky ride while you're trying to create boundaries around, like, some of these, fundamental ways of living your life and, um, Yeah, but like when you set a boundary with somebody and they like can't respect that or can't communicate to you in a way that makes you both compromise in a way, it is a relationship that does need to end, and that includes professional ones.

And I'm, And I don't, I mean, professional relationships don't always end very fast. You know, maybe that's a sign that you start, you know, getting a new skill to get the job that you really want or whatever. But like, that's what changes when you learn that you can take responsibility for your own life.

Like none of us are trapped in a situation. There's, there's always a choice. A lot of times it's a really crappy choice, but there is a choice.

[00:41:13] Nikki La Croce: I feel like that's the hardest part for me, in my personal evolution, is the moment of realization that I need to change. It's not the actual, necessarily, like, taking the first step to make the change can be harder than actually making the change itself.

Like, once you, get the ball rolling. It's like with a task, I have ADHD. If you just do it for 10 minutes, you'll probably keep doing it. Go just do it. With doing this work around shame, like I've been able to keep coming back to this feeling of shame and justifying in certain areas of my life, lack of progress, because I'm like, well, it's the shame.

It's the hurt that I have. It's these circumstances that have dictated that I hold onto this. And it's like, but right now, You're acknowledging that you understand that it's there, you know, generally speaking, like at the very least how to start working through it. So the only thing that's stopping you is you making that choice to go do that work.

And the question in this example becomes, well, Would you rather sit in the discomfort of the shame and hold on to that and never realize your potential or would you rather navigate the discomfort of what comes with doing that and Find out what's on the other side of it and whether that's related to personal growth or relationships that we have Those are the decisions that we have to make And something that you said related to sort of like setting boundaries in professional settings also made me want to ask you, how do you feel in terms of your comfort level or confidence in like setting boundaries with your family?

Because I feel like family in my experience can be very challenging because there is a certain, there's like a power dynamic with parents and siblings, I guess. But I think it's also like, there's a consciousness of, we also know these people so well. that like we are very anticipatory of how they're going to respond, which for me, at least I know, in my experience can sometimes make it hard to set a boundary.

Cause I'm like, well, if I do this, then they'll probably do that.

[00:43:12] Matt Gerlach: Yeah, this is a tough one. And I think it's a great opportunity to remind you that, um, none of us are perfect and it's journey for all of us. And, um, you know, I mean, I think that like, for me, like, um, my family and I went through an estrangement for a while.

Um, and we've. healed. Um, I feel that a lot of the healing has come from a lot of things just kind of being put off the table. That's okay. Um, and a lot of cases.

[00:43:41] Nikki La Croce: It's sort of, we're not talking about this or we're not addressing this further.

[00:43:44] Matt Gerlach: Let me be more clear. Like my siblings, I'm very close with, it's kind of like with like my parents, I would say, you know, it's like we, and like, I mean, I'm close with my mom, I would say, but like with my dad, it's There's still a lot off the table with both of them.

There's a lot more off the table with my dad than there is with my mom. Um, and I don't know, you know, I mean, I, so I took a break from therapy for like a whole year last year and it wasn't for any reason, I was just, I'm in so much coaching and other things that I just like took a break from the traditional therapy.

Um, and I went back this year, really kind of like, that's one of the goals is to just kind of like figure out, like, What is the next step, you know, like when somebody like, I mean, I guess like there's a lot of data So, I'm not sure that like I'm not sure there's much left for me to do right now You know I think that like there's love like if they need something if I need something I think that we would be there for one another but I also think like We might never spend Thanksgiving together again.

You know, we spent Christmas together. Like, I mean, I'm not sure, but it's, I think it's an individual situation. I did listen to an Esther Perel podcast this morning where she talked to a woman who was, um, who was, I mean, I was so interested in this. I'm a woman who was like, You know, breaking up with her dad and, and Esther did say that she does kind of lean towards advocating for people to remain in a relationship like that because it takes a lot of energy not to be in a relationship with somebody.

And I, um. But she didn't say that it was like, that's her only viewpoint on it, but it's like, you know, I mean, I think people, I mean, and I think Brene Brown would say this. I don't know why she just popped in my head about that because I think she has said about this, you know, but it's like, if people aren't doing the work, if people aren't in the arena with you, that's where I got the Brene Brown thing.

Like she talks about the arena. If people aren't in the arena with you, they're not going to understand. Like

[00:45:42] Nikki La Croce: a

[00:45:42] Matt Gerlach: big part of my journey. I mean, this is like, like, this is the fundamental piece of my journey. I was able to learn and identify what I wanted for my life. Like not exactly everything clear, but I was able to really get in touch with myself and learn to embrace my needs, learn to realize nothing was wrong with me.

And then the next step was like, I mean, it was just mountains of limiting beliefs and things that I had to. Tackle one by one and trust my story over what somebody else told me I should feel about my story. And honestly, like eight years later, I don't think that I was wrong about any of those things.

And I don't think there's both, you know, I do. That's one of the things I've learned about getting older, especially I see it at work. There are two sides to every single story.

[00:46:34] Nikki La Croce: Well, it's funny. My mom always used to say there's three sides to a story. Yours, mine, and the truth.

[00:46:39] Matt Gerlach: Yeah, that is even truer than there are three sides to every story.

[00:46:43] Nikki La Croce: I think so much of it is our perception and something that it's funny, Brene Brown, uh, coming up in my head on this one too, is that she had made, uh, a comment about like her relationship with her husband and Having to solve a conflict or navigate a conflict and saying, you know, what's the story you're telling yourself?

Because you can be on completely different pages after walking away from the exact same situation because of something we interpreted about what somebody did or said or the way we received something. And, When we make the assumption that like our experience is everyone's experience, it's really limiting to obviously our view on the situation.

But also I think in terms of like your emotional capacity to have compassion for somebody or empathy for what somebody else is experiencing. And I see it so much more now too, where, you know, I don't really want to go like, um, to the mat on things with friends. people when I feel like if maybe I think that I'm right about something or I feel passionately about something, I used to really feel like I needed to like make my point.

And I, there's absolutely situations where I still feel this way, so I'm not going to act like I'm above it, but I do feel like there's more consideration to like where I put my energy because I understand that. my opinion and my perspective are formed from my experiences and my knowledge. And that's not the same thing that everybody has.

And you had mentioned, I was listening to an interview that you had done, um, previously where you had sort of made the comment that like, not everybody is going through the, like, we're not having the same experiences as everybody else. And so like when we acknowledge what it is that we're experiencing, like we have to see that for what it is to us and move.

forward with the understanding that we have and the, and from what you've shared too, is like, when you have the desire to learn more, so you can be more the version of yourself that you want to be like, that's when you start to really see like the, the massive transformation. And I'm going to quote something that you said from that episode, which I really loved, which was, um, like you can't, like why it's important to also have other people's perspectives.

And I wanted to say this when you mentioned it earlier was you can't read a label. On the bottle from the inside. And I just like, really love that concept. Um, is that a Matt Gerlach original or is that something you've heard somewhere?

[00:49:16] Matt Gerlach: I heard it somewhere. No.

[00:49:18] Nikki La Croce: But it's such a great, it's such a great perspective.

It's like, we just don't really know. Um, you know, because we're so contained within our own perspectives.

[00:49:24] Matt Gerlach: I mean, my journey of like, Healing and growth. I didn't even call it necessarily healing anymore, but just growing as a human and personal development. I found a coach, I didn't even know what coaching was.

And I just like a friend of a friend, like dropped this like beautiful human in my lap that like helped me change my life. And like, you know, she said some things to me along the way, just like, you know what, Matt, like most people don't like feedback. You know, you really like, it's really, interesting just to see like, you've taken more wisdom from me.

I mean, I tell you what to do and you do it. And it's like, look at your life. I think that's most people's challenge. And it's not that they don't know things. It's that we need perspective. You know, I mean, the smarter I get, the older I get, the more I realize I don't know, you know, I mean, I mean, I don't know hardly anything.

I know the limited amount that I know. Um, about the few subjects that I have interest in.

[00:50:19] Nikki La Croce: And I think you raised an interesting point too, Matt, about the things that we're interested in and like, what do we care about and what are we prioritizing? And I think when you're, you had mentioned this. Earlier, when you're on a personal growth journey, like you can't expect everybody to come along with you.

In fact, a lot of people won't. And you're going to learn a lot about what you value in your relationships when you go through this process. And it's not to say that you don't still care for people when you're moving on your journey, and they're not necessarily in parallel with you. My friend always says, like, people are in your life for like a reason, a season, or a lifetime.

And I think that the people that end up being there for the long haul, whether there's like sort of seasonality to that or not, because I think, you know, lifelong friends, they kind of can come in and out of our lives depending on circumstances. But I think the people who really sustain are the ones that meet us where we're at, because they're also interested and invested in learning about themselves and putting forth the effort to grow.

regardless of, you know, what age you are or what like specific, you know, stage of life you're at, because you have a desire to keep expanding.

[00:51:29] Matt Gerlach: Totally. And I mean, I think that that is like, that's a blessing and a curse right now, you know, as a world. I mean, this is no new news. We're more divided than ever.

And I don't know the answer to this, you know, I mean, I think that's, I mean, I don't think I mentioned this earlier, but like I used to suffer from like horrible anxiety. That's what all this worrying was. I mean, it got so bad. I didn't get to mention that, but I'd gone to the hospital again because I started having panic attacks while driving.

And, um, so my mental health was like literally on life support and the way that I've learned to, you know, Almost eradicate this. I mean, it might, I don't suffer any more. Maybe it'll present itself again one day, but I've learned to just like focus on what I can control. And like, I can't control other people.

And I mean, like nobody can. And I think like that. A lot of us are learning that that's the way that we need to live our lives, to have inner peace, to focus on what we can control. But it certainly isn't helping families and groups of people, men, you know, we, I mean, like men, problems very easily because we know we're not going to change anyone's mind.

And we know we're not going to be able to enjoy each other very much when we have these completely polarized views of the world. But I don't know the answer, but I do know that. The more we focus on what we can control, the better we live our lives, I think.

[00:52:53] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. And something you had said earlier that I wanted to come back to, you can't make somebody change.

They're going to do it in their own time or they're not going to do it. And I think people not doing it is a pretty strong barrier to like maintaining relationships and connections with people. But I also feel like I think you and I both experienced this in varying capacities. You're at a point where, like, I, I would be surprised if you tell me that this wasn't the case, but I'm going to ask it as a question.

When you were going through that, like, really hard period in your life, when things were sort of like, um, deconstructing and making you realize that like changes needed to happen. Were there people in your life that were sort of acknowledging that to you before you were ready to like actually understand that?

Have you communicated enough with them that like they could observe that?

[00:53:41] Matt Gerlach: That's a really good question. And I contemplated a lot. I mean, I remember like going to the doctors and like doctors, I was going to several doctors and I was always honest about my, um, like my alcohol use and I smoked cigarettes at the time.

And, um, I heard on way more than one occasion, doctors say I'm more worried about like how hard you're being on yourself than I am worried about this being your temporary thing you need right now to get through things. I mean, there were doctors that were not quite that compassionate to me that were like, You know, you need to change this about your life.

Um, my partner and I, we had a very aggressive couples therapist, a very lovely and aggressive couples therapist. She made us really see what was going on and that really sped things along. I don't recall telling people not to tell me the truth. In terms of, like, people who are trying to help me and, um, friend wise, I mean, I had a couple of friends that I was close with.

Um, same thing. I think the general consensus was I needed more compassion than I needed, um, tough love. Um, but I was so shameful. I mean, I kept so much of this to myself. Um, I don't think people really understood how bad it was for me. And I certainly wasn't trying to let them see that because I just, I spent my whole life just thinking that I was broken or that I was damaged or that something was wrong with me because like, I believe that anxiety and it's like most simplest form.

And I know that people have more, you know, Complex issues in this in some cases, but it's really like our inside needs and our outside environments just completely clash. And when you're in a situation like that, much to like what you said earlier, where, well, it can't be the outside environment because all these people like love me and everyone else looks happy, then it must be something wrong with me.

And then you turn on yourself. So. With all of this that was going on and like a big part of this, like also for me was like, I started this business. I was becoming very successful. I mean, I, I, the business did very well because I stressed myself out like crazy and was worried about, you know, not having a place to live.

But, um, I had so much shame for that also because I, um, because I was. You know, I was becoming someone who was achieving a lot more success than I ever believed I would have. So it's not like, no matter where I went, the self hatred followed me. I couldn't be proud of myself. I couldn't be happy for myself.

Um, Even when things were good and feeling good, I felt like ashamed for having like a survivor's guilt of sorts.

[00:56:16] Nikki La Croce: That's really interesting. And I thank you for sharing that. The sense of like that self hatred following you really hits close to home. And I feel like that's sort of where I'm at, um, in acknowledging like the shame that I've felt for so long.

You know, I achieved what I set out to achieve in my tech career. And I kind of, you know, realized I hit the ceiling on what I cared to do. Continue doing there. And when I made the decision to stop doing that, um, it was really hard for me to see my worth because I had tied so much of that to my ability to be successful in my career to make money.

And because I had gone from making nothing when I started in my career, because it was like 2008, the economy had crashed. There were no jobs. I had a film degree. It was like a real shit show for a while. And so like, I got to this place where I was like, Oh yes, like now I'm a credible person. And like, now I make money and I, you know, people want to hire me because of where I've worked and what I've done and what I can point to.

And it's like, I'm like, I don't know that I've ever been somebody that really understood how much of my worth I was deriving from my external successes because I do feel like somebody who is. very in touch with my emotions, but what I've been learning, and again, this is like happening real time still, is like this awareness of, okay, so what I've done is, while I see myself as worthy in a lot of ways, I tie so much of like my value as a person to the actual amount of dollars and cents that I'm making that typically somebody else was paying me so that when I now am out here doing my own thing and I'm not immediately making that money, Well, you're a failure.

You're you have like, what, what have you ever done with your life? And it starts to really like backpedal on all of the things that I spent years working on and like valuing about myself. And, and really because of like what I would consider vanity metrics, not being where I want them to be rather than take the money out of the equation.

And think about like, how much did you grow in that experience or any of those experiences? How many people did you meet in those experiences that you still have longstanding meaningful relationships with? We sort of look at the external validation through the lens of these superficial things. And I think that, you know, when it comes to money, that's a sensitive subject.

It's important. And when you have it, it's, it's does provide security in a lot of ways, but. I think that so many people who become successful and wealthy, you see them sort of stepping away from it and being like, whoa, like this isn't, like this isn't, this didn't solve the problem. And so it's like, I don't know that I understood until I was now on an island by myself being like, well, you gotta make it work for you now.

Like, what are you actually doing? And it's like, you have value, you have worth, but if you're just constantly reinforcing that this is how I get my value, this is how I experience my worth. then it becomes very challenging to shift that paradigm and like make it something different for yourself.

[00:59:20] Matt Gerlach: Well, let me ask you this, if it's okay, um, like was money the first thing that you were really ever truly proud of yourself for attaining?

Like you're

[00:59:29] Nikki La Croce: Good question. Um, wow. Hmm. Okay. So what's funny is my first thought, it was still something, um, superficial, uh, like externalized validation was I was thinking about like when I played sports when I was younger. Yeah. Yeah. And when, we won a soccer championship and I was the goalkeeper, that was really, a proud moment for me because I had quit the season prior and then came back and then our goalie tore her ACL and then I was in.

And so it was sort of like this impromptu opportunity that I got and I was able to, like, really show up and feel validated. Now, I never really cared about soccer that much. And I actually just mentioned this to somebody on another call where I was saying, my coach had said to me, like, you're great because they are athletic.

You'd be the best if you cared. And I think I've really learned as I've been navigating the shame is that I recognize that I see how when I am really passionate about something, I value myself more. But when I'm not emotionally connected to it, I lack a sense of innate. Gratitude or pride. And then that's when the external validation of like the praise or the money becomes more important because like, I need that to compensate for the fact that I don't really like it.

[01:00:42] Matt Gerlach: This is a great example because over the past, like, few weeks, I've kind of noticed, like, I'll just put it simply, like, I mean, just proud of my success. I sometimes can see it be used to compare myself to others.

And I certainly don't want to be doing that. And I mean, I've started to investigate it more. And the reason is because it was literally the first thing I've ever done for myself that I could be proud of. I was always a chubby, like. That and then like, I mean, I made a lot of money and I started to feel really proud of that.

And, um, and I mean, even when I was younger, like, I mean, during college, I worked at a hospital making 12. 50 an hour, but it was like double what, you know, people made normally around that time. So I always felt a great sense of pride for it, but it wasn't like, um, I was never like showy really. If I could offer like just how I have worked through this, this shame, or this shame around my success, like I really started talking about it.

It was kind of like one of the last big hurdles, like maybe it was the last big hurdle, but it was just like I really started to feel a lot of shame for my success and um, I think I felt shameful that I was, Not depressed anymore, and then I was feeling good, and I talked about it with people, my friends, and, um, the things people said back were so nice.

So, I, I do trust feedback from people, like I trust a good, see if you're gonna trust the bad feedback, the constructive criticism, you also need to trust the good feedback as well. So it goes both ways. So like, when someone tells you like, hey, you could have done better in this interview, you believe that, but then when someone says, hey, you knocked it out of the park, you also got to believe that too.

So I do trust the good feedback and that's really helped me.

[01:02:19] Nikki La Croce: It's really funny that that's the example that you gave to Matt, because one of the things that I've been talking about with my wife is I asked some guests from my last seasons for, um, video testimonials about their experience and I have.

several of them and I watched them and I'm so moved by them and I'm just like, Oh my gosh, this is so lovely. And I really feel that. And I believe this and you know, it's, it's valuable. And I'm like, I need to do something with these. But this shame that I hold on to is like, but if I put it out there, other people are going to be like, that's not true.

And it's like, what? That's not like a real thing, Nikki. So it's, it's interesting how you can hear the information, believe it. People are saying this, you can receive it. You believe that it's true, but when it comes to actually acknowledging that to other people, it's like, it's probably not true. People aren't going to buy it. That's such an unhealthy thing. school of thought. But like you said, if you can believe the bad things, you can also believe the good things. And you don't need to feel shame about like promoting the good things either. I think it can be really challenging as somebody who is doing something that needs to be promoted.

And I'm sure you can feel this way with your own businesses as well. It's like, I got to tell people about it. I got to tell them what's great about it. It's like, I believe this at my core, but. There is this like little young version of me being like, Ooh, I don't know though. Like if what happens if you put it out there and people don't agree.

And it's like, but people who do.

[01:03:48] Matt Gerlach: Yeah. I mean, for me, like, I mean, you're just making me reflect on this. I really do like take a lot of advice from people. I mean, like you hear people like Taylor Swift say like this imposter syndrome never goes away. Everybody's dealing with this imposter syndrome and like I've learned to embrace that. It's not that I mean, I'm not perfect at like embracing everything like everything all of this is a practice But like I read a lot I you know, I mean just like listen to things and learn constantly.

I mean in my ear Five times a week I'm hearing somebody who's super famous reminding me that imposter syndrome is a real thing that never goes away. So I just like have kind of gotten that in autopilot believing it. And then now there's the next like thing to tackle that I need to train myself to believe if I want to survive.

[01:04:35] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Well, I like, I like that you said it that way too. I've heard it with like Adele too, powerhouse humans who are just like crushing it in the world.

And they're like, I still feel that way. I feel like if we set. this unattainable goal that like we will never feel imposter syndrome that we will always feel good enough that we will never hesitate to believe that we can and we will and we are all of these things we will constantly feel that shame that disappointment that sense of like I'm not doing it I'm not doing it instead of being like okay I acknowledge that that's a feeling that I have but I also can validate myself and know that that is a thought or a feeling that I have and it's not the extent of who I am as a person and separating those thoughts from like our actual beliefs about ourselves.

[01:05:20] Matt Gerlach: The only thing that like separates us from attaining our wildest dreams is just the ability to keep showing up and like being bad at something until we're good. And like, I mean, I see it, like I, you know, started my social media videos and all of this and like, Oh my God, the first like, 50 are horrible.

And then it starts to get easier. And, you know, and again, same with the good compliments. You know, about six months ago, I started to hear some things from friends, like really good job, like you're, you know, you're starting to get it but I can see why people don't want to do a lot of this stuff.

It just, it takes a whole level of a whole different level of strength. And I mean, I, you know, I try to work with people and help them realize exactly what I'm saying right now, that we are all dealing with this. It's just us that's holding it back. And that's why I asked you about the shame because I think that, and I don't know that shame ever goes away completely, especially if you have a, you know, a, um, like a history of, I mean, of trauma, but I know that it's not going to do, it's not going to improve if we don't work on it.

I mean, it's a practice that we got to just keep working on it. And the more that we can learn to love ourselves during the process and realize that we're not perfect and nobody else's, the more compassion we can give ourselves to keep going.

[01:06:32] Nikki La Croce: Oh, I, this has just been such a great conversation, Matt. I had no question that it would be, but I love the direction that it went.

And I really appreciate your thoughts in terms of your own journey and also sharing how other people can apply some of these things to their lives or ask themselves certain questions to get there. It was like a little bit of like a live coaching session. So thank you for that, because now I can, now I can think about it a little bit more, um, And completely as I go into my therapy session this week, and I'll be like, yeah, I actually had some, some good revelations.

And I feel like there's a sense of, um, you know, just, I have a tremendous amount of gratitude for you and for your vulnerability and for sharing. your gift in a way that is intended to help other people navigate those feelings and feel less alone. That's just such a huge part of why I do this and, and sharing your story is absolutely helping do that.

So I appreciate you and I'm so glad we had a chance to chat again.

[01:07:30] Matt Gerlach: Me too. I really enjoyed this. Thank you for your time today.

[01:07:34] Nikki La Croce: Thank you. Gang, that's all for this episode. Matt, is there anywhere that we want to point people so they can find you?

[01:07:40] Matt Gerlach: Yes, I would love for you to reach out to me. Um, this is a special offer.

Just email me directly. Um, right now I have a special gift. It is a, uh, six step guide to achieving the life that you want for yourself, learning how to identify it and breaking down the barriers that are holding you from. that becoming a reality. So just shoot me an email matt at mattgerlach. com and you can check out my website and my Instagram as well.

I'm active on those will be in the show notes. So

[01:08:08] Nikki La Croce: yeah, absolutely. All right. We'll catch you next time, gang.