The Quest for Deeper Friendships with Jewel Hohman

[00:00:00] Jewel Hohman: We get this message all the time of, I shouldn't care what people think. So when we find ourselves caring what people think, and we're like, Oh my gosh, I thought I was stupid or something. Then we do that thing where we add shame on top of it. And we're like, Oh, I shouldn't be doing this. I know better.

Like this shouldn't be here. I just need to. And then we try to push it down, try to distract ourselves rather than, okay, well, why do we care what people think? For most people, it's protective. And it's to make sure that we are still a part. Of the group, a part of the pack. And social death, back then, like back for cave people days, social death meant actual death.

[00:00:58] Nikki La Croce: by embracing our most authentic selves and truly understanding who we are so we can understand the type of relationships that we want to attract. This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart as I started this podcast with the goal of helping people connect and Jewel has a similar mission to help combat the loneliness epidemic.

This conversation is one that is not only incredibly Insightful and informative, but also really touches on the importance of the relationships that we have in our lives. So I'm excited for you to dive in. Let's go. Jewel, I'm so happy to be talking to you again.

[00:01:34] Jewel Hohman: I'm so happy to be talking with you again.

I had so much fun, just pow wowing with you and just talking. I could talk to you forever. I know. We were like, okay, yeah, we can talk about that. Yeah, we can talk about that. We can talk about that. It was so fun. So,

[00:01:48] Nikki La Croce: well, that's a, yeah, that's a huge compliment to me. Thank you so much. I really feel like the first message that you had sent me sharing a bit about what you do and who you are, um, and your mission to help people.

Create friendships and also what it really looks like to do the work for yourself, to show up the best way possible in friendships, to show up the best way for yourself so that you do show up the best way that you can in relationships. Really struck a chord with me for a number of reasons. I mean, a big part of it is that, you know why I do this show is 'cause I love connecting with people and I like to be able to model that to people and to show people what it looks like to be vulnerable and.

And that's something that I've definitely learned more about myself in the process and seeing, you know, where have I maybe held judgment or where was I less open minded and coming into these conversations and seeing just how much opportunity there is between us as people and with the The desire I think that so many people have to create more friendships, more deep and meaningful connections.

The work that you're doing to help facilitate that is so powerful and necessary. Um, so since, you know, I feel like there's so much to talk about, as you said, I, and, and keeping in mind that we both have other things that probably have to get done today. So I, you dive into the meat of everything. But I also want to give you a chance to share a little bit about what you do, um, in the capacity of your work, really like in terms of coaching and bringing people together in your community, uh, before we get into kind of the nitty gritty of the conversation.

So we've got the stage set a bit for the listeners.

[00:03:32] Jewel Hohman: Absolutely. And I really appreciate that. I don't think I could accurately explain what I do with my people without explaining why. So, part of why I do what I do, so right now I work with people one on one. And I work with people that have like minor forms of social anxiety, some social perfectionism, which I'm sure we'll talk about today at some point.

Uh, but also two people that are just like, what happened with my friendships? And Part of the reason why I do this is because there are so many structural societal shifts, changes that have hurt our connections. And before the pandemic, because a lot of people will be like, Oh, the pandemic made it so much worse.

And yes, and no, loneliness was steadily increasing.

[00:04:23] Nikki La Croce: Millennials

[00:04:25] Jewel Hohman: report like one in For one in five, I think. Oh my gosh, now I'm messing this stuff up. But we can fact check that later, but it's

[00:04:33] Nikki La Croce: too high. Yeah,

[00:04:35] Jewel Hohman: it's exactly, it's too high. A number of millennials that report having no close friends. And we, in my opinion, have been put in this.

Loneliness epidemic through cultural isolation from like commercial isolation. And so part of the reason why I do what I do is because I want to help people like almost like take their power back from that. Because although there are a lot of structural and societal changes that we need to make, like in so many different ways for us to really have the community that we all desire and the close relationships that we desire, I don't think that means we have to suffer now.

[00:05:13] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, totally. Totally.

[00:05:14] Jewel Hohman: That's what I do. That's why I, I teach certain topics. We, um, I'm launching a group at the end of this year. We're doing courses at the end of this year. That way it's more accessible, accessible to everybody. But what I do when I'm on with clients is I work with people that, you know, are struggling with some social anxiety, some insecurities.

And they're like, I just cannot feel connected to people. Like they know that they are the thing standing in between them and their, the connections that they want, which we can dive into this as we go, but. This is often the common barriers, like our thoughts about ourselves and our thoughts about other people.

Because at the end of the day, friendship, we know the science of it. We do. Like, it's not a mystery anymore. I think we think friendship just happens or it doesn't. We know the science of it now. But what prevents us from applying that science. And again, cultural things, but I love helping the individual really take their power back, but also be like, okay, how am I preventing myself from connecting to people in a meaningful way?

[00:06:17] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:06:18] Jewel Hohman: So yeah, we can dive all into that, but how I work with clients right now, again, is through that one on one. I use evidence based practices. Um, I am always shooting for the most ethical evidence based self help practices. I

[00:06:30] Nikki La Croce: appreciate that.

[00:06:31] Jewel Hohman: And. Yep. I'm very, you know, unfortunately there's a lot of information, misinformation in this world.

So I'm very passionate about that. And, uh, same thing with coaching practices as well. Like I use a trauma, a trauma informed approach to work with clients one on one to help them create more connections.

[00:06:50] Nikki La Croce: I feel like everything that you're saying is just so up my alley. Um, the, your approach to it kind of working backwards from where you landed there is like, I think.

The ethical approach to it is so important and it's something that I feel like we might inherently believe that people will do, right? Like we hope, right? That people are doing things ethically, but if you look, take like a nice glance around the world, that's really not the case in a lot of ways. And when it comes to creating meaningful connections, you know, there are a lot of people out there who the priority for them, the priority is how do I monetize this?

How do I create more business around it? And so while like, The output might be something that's what people desire or the marketing, you know, spiel is like, here is this what you want from this? We can give it to you. It might be done in a way that is more pandering rather than, um, productive or to your point, informed based on.

who the people are coming in. And I feel like that's something that's really valuable in those one on one approaches is that you get to have that and it's more specific and tailored to somebody and like what their needs are. Um, I love that you want to expand it and build that out more because I think it's absolutely essential for people to have that knowledge and be able to integrate into communities that offer that.

I also feel like if you're somebody who has social anxiety. or deals with like feelings of inadequacy around other people, I feel like having a one on one approach can be really beneficial because you have to unravel that before you can get into like the group setting where you're starting to feel more like yourself and, and owning that.

And you know, something that you said about sort of like taking your power back, I think for a lot of people too, it might be even just like learning what your power is. Have you found that to be the

[00:08:39] Jewel Hohman: Yeah, absolutely. And you articulated that so well, and that is exactly why. I do what I do to help people really connect because there are normally individual level blacks that are getting in people's way.

So yeah, definitely them exploring like what their power is. I think for a lot of people there's confusion on This kind of jumps right into friendship topics as well, but there's kind of confusion on, Oh, what's my responsibility and what's my friend's responsibility.

[00:09:09] Nikki La Croce: I love that you're going there though, because I have so much, Oh, I feel like I was listening to something this weekend and it totally tapped into where I knew we were going to go in this conversation.

I was like, this is going to really make it so much more robust. And I feel like you can't really talk about. What you're doing without leaning into that aspect of it, you sort of have to hold the individual entity as its own thing and the friendship entity as its own thing and then understand that there's a combination of what you're doing that ultimately is delivering the outcome that you want in the way that you're making those connections or not.

[00:09:41] Jewel Hohman: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And helping people understand to where they actually have so much control over their connectedness. I don't want to say their friendships exactly like with other people, but they have so much more control over their connectedness and how they can create that. Regardless of whether that's with making a friendship that they already have, more fulfilling or finding new friends, or even just fitting, like a lot of my clients are entrepreneurs in some kind of way or new moms.

And it's like having friendship fit into their schedule in a sustainable way, a way that's sustainable and almost like routine for them. So, but yeah, like helping people decide and to know like, okay, Which part is my half of this relationship? Which part is their half? Cause I think it all can get really muddy, especially with, you know, there's a lot of like quotes and sayings out there.

And then I know that I can say this for me. I would use whatever it was against me. So if I was in a friendship that maybe wasn't as supportive and it might've been best for me to deprioritize that. And I saw something out there that was like, Oh, we cut people off too much, which in my opinion, we do. But Like, I would be like, Oh, no, I can't cut this friend off.

So helping people on like an individual case by case basis, it's honestly really just learning to trust yourself and learning, okay, what's my responsibility and what's other people's responsibility.

[00:11:09] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. And I think what you're touching on there too, is the need to be able to, um, set boundaries, even sometimes when that's uncomfortable, because I feel like we hold on to relationships because of what they once represented, I think a lot of times.

And I'm guilty of that. And I don't even think guilty of that is the right term to use, but I've absolutely done that. I do that because they're relationships that you still value. And they hold a place in your heart. Because they hold a place in your heart doesn't necessarily mean that they hold a place in your life at the forefront in this present moment.

And one of the things that one of my best friends has said years and years and years to me is Some people are there for like a reason, a season or a lifetime. And it's such a simple concept, but it really, um, resonates with me because I feel like, you know, you have those friends who are there from, you know, whether it's the start, because it's actually the very beginning and it's a whole lifetime, or, you know, you meet them in high school or college or as an adult, and then they're there for the duration of it.

Like those are, those are the people that they stick around. They're there, they're in your life forever. Frequently, and you also understand each other and the way that you connect enough to be like, when we don't see each other, I still know that you're there for me. Whereas I think what can happen with sort of the seasonal friends is that somebody might be really relevant at a point.

Like, so a good friend of mine and I were going through very different, but intense grieving processes at the same time, I had lost my mom and she lost a child. And it was like, we were really able to be there for each other. And. We also like drop off and dip back in and come back around. This is somebody who really is a lifelong friend, but our interactions can be very seasonal, right?

And I think it's like, sometimes we want to be able to encapsulate what a friendship is in this like very neat package and be like, These people are my friends and therefore they're always exactly the same priority in my life or, um, prevalence in my life. And to me, the best connections and the most sustainable connections, to use the word that you use, this is something I say constantly.

It's like, it's not just about longevity, it's sustainability and durability of a friendship.

[00:13:24] Jewel Hohman: Yeah.

[00:13:25] Nikki La Croce: I think when both people, or however many people are involved in the friendship, understand that you can kind of come and go, but the connection never wanes. Those are the ones that I've experienced that are like the most powerful and the most long standing relationships.

And it's because there's a lot that is also unspoken, um, in terms of the understanding that you share with each other. And I think that understanding is a reflection of how much you actually also understand each other on like an actual visceral personal level too, because you don't feel like you have to cater to that person.

So then you have the freedom to kind of be in and out of it as both of you understand makes sense because life's happening for all of us. Um, so I'd be curious kind of what your perspective on that is.

[00:14:10] Jewel Hohman: Yeah. I, I'm really glad you shared that. And I think your listeners can really use your story with that friend and like, Oh, I, you know, she flows or they flow in and out of my life.

And I still feel really connected to her. That also is representative though of, if you will, like almost like your connection, like barometer. Oh, barometer.

[00:14:35] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I was like, yeah, no, I know where you're going with it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:41] Jewel Hohman: Uh, but it's, um, very much representative of that, like of your connection homeostasis of your ability to feel connected to other people.

And unfortunately what gets in the way of that for a lot of people, Is I, you know, they don't want to talk to me as frequently because I'm not enough

[00:14:59] Nikki La Croce: or

[00:14:59] Jewel Hohman: they don't really care about our friendship. It's those kind of thoughts that really prevent us from having that. So I think to your listeners can hear that and can hear that you said, Oh, if friendship flows in and out, but the connection never wanes.

I think that is such a beautiful. Sentiment for that. I think as well, I love that you said that longevity isn't the main point of a successful friendship, that there are seasons. Research shows us that our friendships actually change every seven years. And that doesn't mean that we have like completely new friends every seven years.

What that means is maybe somebody that was, you know, very much a priority friend for you is now. you know, lower on like the totem pole, uh, lower on the priority list. Yeah. Better way to say that. Um,

[00:15:51] Nikki La Croce: just real quick. I want to say, I think one of the hardest things to have like a conversation like this is that because of the way that we logically think about things, it's like, You kind of want to be able to speak to it in levels of priority or, um, you know, urgency, importance, whatever it is, like, whatever the function of the, the relationship is at any point, but it's really not to minimize the care for a person.

It's just, yeah. Why is it at the forefront or not at the forefront? It is more sort of the way that I try to think about it because I have people that I care about so deeply and I'm like my bandwidth right now needs to be more dedicated to people who are on the same page as me in more ways because that's what I need in terms of where my life is right now.

But it does not mean that your relationship with me or our connection isn't important. And I am like, Really grappling with that one in terms of how you actually, like, hold space for it when somebody feels a little rejected when you don't have the bandwidth.

[00:16:51] Jewel Hohman: Yes. I, like, had to hold myself back from, like, screaming into the mic because, yes, exactly, because so often, oh, I, I can't even.

Explain, but you said it so well. And honestly, I'm going to steal this quote from you. It's so good. It's what I'm honestly constantly talking about. And that is like the prioritization doesn't mean lack of care.

[00:17:14] Nikki La Croce: Yes. Yeah.

[00:17:15] Jewel Hohman: Those are not the same thing at all because of bandwidth because of life, but also to research also shows.

And I'm so excited. A new book came out recently, just to shout her out. I can never say her last name correctly. I've even. Try to do Google Trans, like the voice pronunciation. It's fine. Yeah. But, uh, Danielle Bayard Jackson came out with a new book recently where she talks about this in depth. It's so fun, like literally hot off the press, but she says in that book that friendship, like research shows that friendship, 50 percent of our friendships are reciprocal and what she means by that is 50 percent of our friendships, not that they don't reciprocate, not that they don't care about us, not that they don't invest in us, but 50 percent it's almost like are prioritized the same.

[00:18:06] Nikki La Croce: Interesting. So the

[00:18:07] Jewel Hohman: other 50 percent are, and before anyone listens to this and freaks out and is like, Oh my gosh, I'm not as high of a priority in my friend's life as they are for me. You have the same thing. Oh

[00:18:19] Nikki La Croce: my God, I love it.

[00:18:20] Jewel Hohman: You have the same thing. You have the same thing. There are people in your world where you are a higher priority than they are to you.

That does not mean you don't care about them. Right. It does not mean the love isn't there. That doesn't mean anything about that person. Recently, I had a friend move back from being two hours away. One of my childhood friends. And so we've been getting together more and But honestly the way my life is structured right now She wasn't as much of a priority.

I was definitely higher on her priority list because she didn't really know a lot of people here. Right? Does that mean anything about how much I love her? About how special our memories are together? About how appreciative I am of how supportive she's been of me? Absolutely freaking not. Right. So I think we need to, like, understand that connection is this fluid, beautiful thing, and to, I think it were, We get hurt by it is when we make it mean other things.

When we make it mean things about ourselves, when we make it mean things about the other person, when we make it mean things about friendships in general. Because this whole notion too that like, like, friendships are hard to have, they aren't. Oh no, God yeah. It doesn't have to be.

[00:19:30] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Oh gosh, I just, I love that you said that too.

And I really appreciate the example that you gave, um, with your friendship as well. And you know, I, I moved to Canada about two years ago now, and I, maybe two and a half now. And one of the things that I feel really lucky about is that I kind of inherited it, inherited my wife's friend group. But the thing is, is that I've been able to form these individual connections with people that, you know, are separate of our relationship in the group dynamic.

And I mentioned that because as somebody who had moved to a new place and was like, I don't have friends here. I'd lived in Seattle for a while. I had made friends, but I made them primarily through work. And so I wasn't up here in an office meeting people, you know, it was like, I have to really be intentional if I want to cultivate friendships, to put my energy into it.

And so I prioritized. Making time and asking people, you know, if they want to hang out and trying to get it together. And one of my closest friends here. We were talking about this. I just saw her this weekend and I said it was funny because I remember when we first met up that you were like, Oh, you like actually planned it.

Like you really, like you said you wanted to hang out and then you didn't. I was like, I don't have friends here. Like I'm trying actively to meet people. And so I feel like when you are in a position where that is, to your point, important to you, and you're actively pursuing it, then yes, it's going to maybe feel like you're giving either more, or at least like you have to initiate it potentially more than other people, because for you, it's top of mind.

And for them, it's like, yeah, I'd be happy to do that, but it's just not the thing that I'm immediately going towards. Right.

[00:21:09] Jewel Hohman: Right.

[00:21:10] Nikki La Croce: And

[00:21:10] Jewel Hohman: right. And so many people get caught there. Go ahead. Yeah. And, and

[00:21:13] Nikki La Croce: I think that what's interesting about that too, Joel, what you had said about, it doesn't mean, you know, that like the connection's any less important either.

And I feel like when people feel that way and I'll speak for myself and I'll also speak to the fact that I think I've witnessed this with people who feel like they're not getting enough from me. And that's this sense of, okay, I immediately go to like my inadequacy, my shame, my feeling of like, You and I talked about this and I, this is where I want to kind of veer into the social perfectionism conversation we started when we first spoke, it's like, what did I say that like was incredibly weird or made them maybe not like me as much as I wanted them to, or, you know, it's like, we're, we're sort of trying to facilitate this desired outcome of somebody accepting me, reflecting back to me what I'm giving to them, but it becomes, um, I feel like you start to self abandon a little bit in that, even if it doesn't feel that way.

Um, because I was listening to somebody this weekend who had made a comment about, um, I can't, uh, maybe like Alfred Adler or something like that. I can't remember exactly. Um, but they were talking about this concept of how we all have tasks, like what we. need to do for ourselves and how we feel about ourselves and our lives and things like that.

When we feel rejected by somebody who has given us no clear indication of rejection, but we just feel like we're not getting enough validation from them, that effectively what we're doing is putting our task to validate ourselves, to love ourselves onto them. First of all, they're unwitting to that. Like they're completely unaware that we're needing that from them.

Potentially we're seeing they're going, I haven't gotten the validation that I need from them. It must mean this. You don't need the validation from them, but, but also absent that validation, you are still a whole person who has all the qualities that you have. And if this person is spending time with you, And they're not flat out saying, I don't want to.

They are showing you that they are prioritizing your relationship. Now. You have to assume in a lot of cases that's in good faith, but proximity and convenience and things like that factor in. And I do think some people are just sort of like, yeah, I guess I'll just hang out with them and, you know, move on to the next thing.

And so I think part of it is also, you know, gauging how Frequently, you're the person initiating or driving the friendship. And so I know I kind of split focus there from the social perfectionism side of it, sort of like the effort that we put into it. But I think in some regard they, they go hand in hand, but I'd love to talk first about sort of the social perfectionism side of it.

[00:23:48] Jewel Hohman: Yeah. So, uh, Ellen Hendrickson and she studied social anxiety, like her whole entire career. Um, So, one thing that she says is that we are afraid of the reveal. And what she means by the reveal is that we're afraid other people are going to find out about the thing that we are insecure about.

[00:24:13] Nikki La Croce: Oh, I just felt that in my whole body.

I'm like, this is what I'm working on in therapy right now.

[00:24:21] Jewel Hohman: It's, it's, yeah. I mean, And when I am working with clients, it's always their own brand, their own version of that. Oh, I'm afraid people are going to see me this way because if they see me that way, then I'm going to be like, yep, that's true. And so we do all of these things.

ironically like shut down, uh, not initiate with people that actually perpetuate our disconnection with others because we are trying to be protective and make sure that what we are insecure about isn't revealed. So for a lot of us, that comes out through social perfectionism. And this was the thing I really struggled with.

Now we hear the term often just like a side note, I think it's really interesting. Um, we hear the term often that Like, Oh, I'm an introverted extrovert. There's actually no such thing. There's a socially anxious extrovert and a and confident introverts, right? So people that recharge by being alone and they're confident.

Oftentimes with social perfectionism and what that really means is like, Oh, I have to say the right thing at the right time in the right way. Or else it means X, Y, Z about me. I have to, you know, make sure I perform. I have to make sure people are like beaming at me and I have to like almost like be the best to feel good about myself, to feel like what I'm afraid Of what I'm insecure about won't be revealed.

So for a lot of people, they are actually like socially anxious, perfectionistic extroverts. And that was me. And it's such a painful experience because what I used to do is go to social events and want to feel connected to people. But I was so afraid of the reveal. I was so afraid of not being perfect.

Oh, I have to make sure I say the right thing at the right time, get the right reactions to leave here and feel decent about myself. Okay. Whenever something would slightly go wrong, I would be like, Oh my gosh,

[00:26:24] Nikki La Croce: they

[00:26:24] Jewel Hohman: totally saw, they totally, you know, Can tell that I'm like the secret loser and I would have that experience of my biggest insecurity being revealed even through like really small micro expressions in micro moments, and then I would go home and cry in the car right, so And a lot of us have different levels of this.

We, of it's a spectrum, of course um But that's really, if you're wondering, like, what social perfectionism is, that is how it can get in the way of us feeling connected when we're socializing, but it also comes up a lot as well, like, I had wonderful friends, truly, but did I have the experience of having wonderful friends that loved me?

No! Because I was constantly looking for, oh my gosh, do they love me? See that I'm secretly the worst.

[00:27:16] Nikki La Croce: God, I feel like you're speaking to my soul right now because you question your connections because of your insecurity with zero indication from the actual interactions that you're having and like you said with those micro moments micro expressions I've walked out of With the group of friends that I was just talking about, walked out of a night with them, feeling really great about it.

And then a switch flipped and I was like, do my friends really like me? And, and the thing is, is I'm self aware enough at this point in my life. And I know my friends well enough to know that that's not the case, but it's like, it points to something that you clearly need to address. Because there's some internalized shame that's happening around like, why do you not feel good enough?

What is it that you think that they're thinking or saying about you when you leave? Right? And it's a very challenging dynamic to navigate internally because it's also something that because if you're in that headspace, I'm curious if you felt this way as well, because you're like ruminating on it, or even if you're not totally fixated on it, but you're just having that anxiety about it.

It's like, that's not really a conversation that you're feeling like I should now tell my friends. that I was feeling this way. I did do it the one time though and my friend responded really well prefacing it with, I know you overthink. So I'm going to kind of address this with that in mind. So you understand that that's not what the situation was, but what you're describing to is the story that we tell ourselves versus the actuality of what's happening.

[00:28:42] Jewel Hohman: Right, exactly. And Exactly what you said there. It's coming from a shame. It's coming from an insecurity within us. And my favorite thing to do with clients is to help them be compassionate of that, accepting of that, learn how to own it in their own way. And it's so funny, Nikki, like, cause that's like one of the first things that we do.

And start with how easy connection is after that, truly, because then you're, you're not afraid to say the vulnerable thing, to reach out and initiate and, uh, instead of fearing of bothering them, you're like, it's interesting how much that has to come first because it impacts. everything else truly in our relationships, other people.

So a way to kind of summarize that, that I love to tell clients is like the way we relate to ourselves is the way we relate to other people as well. So if we're relating like, Oh, I have this shameful thing I need to hide that I don't want to look at that, you know, I feel awful about, we're going to feel that way in our relationships too.

[00:29:49] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Well, that's really interesting. I like that perspective for sure. And I, I'm curious. So because you, you've built. You know, your business and, and I don't even want to call it just the business, right? Like your, your purpose is around this. Your mission is around this, um, because of a need that you had and something that you felt within yourself was important to address.

Do you feel like there was a specific turning point for you where you recognized that like, that was, something that you needed to address or was it sort of an evolution that you were coming to? Because obviously you've shared, um, in our first conversation, like, you know, you have a lot of certifications.

You, as you mentioned at the beginning of this, like you're trauma informed, so you, you understand a lot of the psychology and the science behind it. So I, I know that. I, given what we've shared with each other thus far, like self awareness is the first step to all of it. Like if you're, if you're not willing to admit that it's the thing, then like, you're never going to get past that.

So you had the self awareness, obviously. What was the catalyst for you to be like, okay, now I'm actually going to do something about it.

[00:30:51] Jewel Hohman: It's really fun to think about because this was so long ago. And I really appreciate you asking the question, but I, the turning point truly was for me. I remember being at my old kitchen table and I had been doing a lot of work with a bunch of different kinds of practitioners and I remember having this experience where I was starting to overthink and I was starting to be like, oh, they hate me for this reason.

They think I'm stupid for this reason. I think I'm stupid for this reason. I'm, you know, starting to already fantasize about how to be better next time. And I was having this experience and I remember sitting there and I was like, Oh, like this does not help me ever. And like, but I watched myself have that experience and I didn't make it wrong.

And I remember crying at the kitchen table and I It was so painful and yet I felt so close to myself at the same time because I didn't make any of that wrong. I didn't believe any of it. I wasn't buying into those stories, but I was just almost like watching myself have that experience. And that's when I really, that was a huge turning point for me.

And I think too, there's tons of turning points, right? Like change happens in tons of moments, little moments, but that one really sticks out to me because I think what I really took away from that. was that I don't have to carry this. anymore. This doesn't have to be what I carry, what I operate from anymore.

So,

[00:32:24] Nikki La Croce: yeah. Well, I was writing it down as you said it and then you repeated it and I was like, okay, I can remember to come back to that. You said, I didn't make it wrong. And I feel like that really touches on a tender spot for me. Um, and I'm sure for many people. Because when you feel that shame and you have that sense of inadequacy, for me, it's very, like, I'm very aware that there is internalized shame.

Like I know, uh, a little bit about sort of the origin of it. And I think there's only so many layers that you can peel back where you're just sort of like now staying in the fact that you know this thing, but you're still not moving through it. And I, I Very recently hit this wall where I feel like I'm starting to chip away at it and then I kind of revert back and then I do a little bit more and then I start to revert back.

And I have this therapy session last week where my therapist said to me, what if you Instead of looking at it as it's bad, the shame is bad, and feeling ashamed of the shame. You thought about it with more curiosity and even like an element of play if you can. What is it that this little saboteur, as she said, like is trying to do to protect you?

What is it that is the origin of that shame that you feel is serving you, which is why you perpetuate it and to your point, coming to that real. harsh realization and harsh, not in a bad way. Like it's just more of the like, Hey, you're going to do something about it now. Or are you going to keep just saying, yes, I have shame.

I have shame. I need to work through it and do it in these little bits and pieces, but never propel yourself forward through it. And it was like, Oh, okay. So stop looking at it as it's bad. And I think it's, kind of funny to be like, Oh God, the feeling that I get when I think about my shame is more shame.

So now how do I, how do I confront that feeling? Like, what do I do with this? But it really helped isolate that as its own thing. And like you were saying, be objective about it. Like, does it serve you? If it does, which it's really not, but like, what do you, what do you perceive it to be doing that's helping you?

And what we perceive it to be doing, whether it's shame or something else, is it is in some capacity, a protective mechanism. And I was just listening to, um, Untethered Soul by Michael Singer. I don't know if you've, um, read or listened to it, but it's,

[00:34:45] Jewel Hohman: it's

[00:34:45] Nikki La Croce: really great. I like the content of it a lot. And speaking to the fact that You know, in a lot of these situations, we have the choice.

Like we can decide to hold on to it, or we can decide to release it. And it's not to make it seem as if, Oh, this is so much easier. Like, it's so easy. Just let it go. Just stop feeling that way or stop thinking about it. You have to unpack it enough to understand what it looks like to move forward and not completely continue to kind of revert back to it.

Otherwise we just repeat those patterns. And I feel like that's a really good example of what you were describing for yourself. If you stop making it wrong, stop feeling bad about the thing you already feel bad about. Um, like give yourself space to acknowledge that you feel that way, but as much as you can remove the emotion front from it and look at it objectively.

And I feel like a great way to do that. You know, a lot of people be like, well, you wouldn't talk to your best friend that way. You wouldn't talk to somebody you love that way. I think in this type of situation, it's the same mindset where it's like, what would you say to somebody who is telling you what they feel?

And it's exactly how you feel right now. You would absolutely try to help them navigate through it, but you don't do that with yourself. You're not as compassionate with yourself as you would be with other people. And I feel like that's such a really valuable point to make for listeners that like, is so much easier for us to direct our compassion towards other people and slight ourselves.

We can actually be more compassionate to other people if we give that grace and compassion to ourselves too.

[00:36:16] Jewel Hohman: Yes, I really appreciate you sharing that Nikki and I think everybody will benefit from hearing that because there's something that most people have something that they want to change or that they have shame around.

And I will say that's the number one thing I do with my clients is I help them understand, okay, what am I getting out of thinking this? And in such a micro level, that's so helpful for them. So for example, if they are having like a socially perfectionistic thought, like I have to get them to like me, for example, or, you know, I'm not good enough.

Then it's like, okay, well, why like going like the step? Why? And it doesn't have to mean like going back into, sometimes it is. And sometimes it's helpful. I don't do that, but for some people, most of my clients have been through some kind of therapy, but there are experts out there that can help you with that professionals out there.

But, um, what I do with clients is like, okay, what is my brain getting out of this? And we really think of like, okay, there's ourselves and then there's our protective brain. And so. When we, instead of being like, okay, I shouldn't feel this way. This is a problem. I shouldn't be dealing with this anymore.

We're accepting of it when we understand it and we are compassionate with it. With it, you would be surprised how quickly it is to, like, move forward from there. Because it's almost like that part of you gets to feel heard and to know that you're really safe.

[00:37:39] Nikki La Croce: So,

[00:37:40] Jewel Hohman: yeah, so like an example of that, uh, that I love to use with people is we get this message all the time of I shouldn't care what people think.

So, when we find ourselves, caring what people think and we're like, Oh my gosh, I thought I was stupid or something. Then we do that thing where we add shame on top of it. We're like, Oh, I shouldn't be doing this. I know better. Like this shouldn't be here. I just need to. And then we try to push it down, try to distract ourselves rather than, okay, well, why do we care what people think?

For most people, It's protective, and it's to make sure that we are still a part of the group, a part of the pack. And social death, back then, like back for cave people days, social death meant actual death. Like, we could not survive without each other. So, It's such an instinctual, deep fear, as well, this is just like a side note, but our brain lights up in the same places that it does with physical pain, as it does with rejection.

So this is a deep thing for everybody. And so, when we don't make ourselves wrong, and instead if we find ourselves caring what people think, and we're like, okay, this is human, this is normal, what's going on here, how am I trying to protect myself? Okay. If, you know, they think these things about me, then I'm going to be liked in the group, I'm going to be safe, and then if they, then you have that ability to almost like talk to that one part of you because you're not making it wrong, and you're able to be like, hey, you're still going to be emotionally safe.

If they don't like you and they kick you out of this group.

[00:39:21] Nikki La Croce: Right.

[00:39:21] Jewel Hohman: Which never really happens, by the way, for the most part. Yeah.

[00:39:24] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:39:25] Jewel Hohman: So rare, actually. But, oh, you're actually going to be emotionally safe. So, one of my favorite stories recently, this happened a few months ago, but it's For anybody listening, it's truly the best way, in my opinion, to think about this.

I had a close friend who, uh, you know, we had a friendship breakup, we're no longer friends, and I am going to a coffee shop, I'm gonna go work, and then I get a text message from this friend's mom, and I was relatively close to this friend's mom, of her making fun of me, and she meant to send it to my ex best friend.

That hurts, right?

[00:40:09] Nikki La Croce: For so many reasons, this is all making me very uncomfortable. Like,

[00:40:14] Jewel Hohman: that hurt. And what's so interesting, y'all, if I would have been like, Oh my gosh, I shouldn't care what they think, this shouldn't bother me, I would feel a thousand times worse. Instead, when I got to the coffee shop and I got that message, I was like, Oh my God.

And I felt hurt and I had my cry and I was like, of course this hurts. I cared about this person. I still care about these people, right? I want them to be doing well. Of course it hurts to feel like you aren't, like you're kicked out or you're rejected, but because I was able to not make it wrong, I was able to be like, okay, this really doesn't mean anything about me.

Something is going. And I was actually I was actually genuinely concerned for this person, my friend, they weren't behaving normally. But anyway, I was able to see that because I wasn't taking it personally, because I wasn't making anything wrong. I was like, okay, this doesn't mean anything about me.

Something's going on with them. And I was able to look at like, okay, how am I still part of the group? How am I still safe? I ended up, because. I did that and I felt so good with myself truly in that moment after I had this one where I took care of myself in the car and I was like, Oh man, like I felt like I could do anything cause that hurts.

I was going to be like, I don't

[00:41:24] Nikki La Croce: think most people would have handled it that well. I know sure as shit I wouldn't have. So like,

[00:41:29] Jewel Hohman: Well, truly one, lots of practice. And two, this is what I think about coach on all day, like for weeks, for years, I've, for every, every week I do like, 20 to 22 people. So, so it can be done

[00:41:41] Nikki La Croce: though.

I think the important thing here is it can be done. You can have the emotional reaction. I think it's to your point. I think it's really important to have the emotional reaction. Like you said, don't suppress it. That's so. the antithesis of what we're trying to do, I think, societally now in giving people space to feel.

What you said about sort of like the things that trigger in our brains around physical pain and rejection is really interesting. And I'd love to, um, explore that more, uh, you know, for my own awareness, because when I think about the things that make me feel the most insecure, the moments when I feel the most insecure, it is this very somatic experience.

And when you exist in a space where your body's responding like that, it's very hard to just bypass it and be like, Oh, I don't have to care what somebody thinks because your body's telling you, you do care. And I think that's part of what a lot of us now are starting to explore too. Uh, for a while, my wife, I would say to her, I'm like, well, where do you feel it in your body?

And she's like, I don't know. What that means, I don't get what you're asking me to communicate to you. I think sometimes we can think that other people understand what we understand because we're so embedded in it and we're consuming it or we're actively engaged with it and so we might try to communicate with people in a way that they're not either receptive to or don't understand and we're not.

I wanted to kind of come into part of the conversation that we had had originally, where you had mentioned the importance of also still being able to communicate these things to each other, even when it's uncomfortable. And especially, um, you'd said, you know, regarding female friendships, because there's a lot of emotionality in that.

Now it can be any gender friendships. It's not, it's not exclusive to that, but I, I think when you have people who are leading from a place of emotionality, um, it can, especially when you're younger. It can become very, it can devolve very quickly. And one of the things, and the friend that I was speaking to who had a very nurturing response to me being like, I feel like you might hate me.

It wasn't how I phrased it, but she validated me being like, I, you know, appreciate that you shared this with me. And it's important to me. I also think about what was I doing that might have made you feel that way. And I was like, here's the thing, old me would have lost it and felt really rejected. It's fine.

I'm just gonna, it's fine. I don't think that's fine. And then like the next day rolls around. I'm like, no, here's what's going to happen. I'm going to think about this constantly until I see my friend the next time. And then I'm just going to bring it up and I'm going to be weird about it. So like, come at it head on, confront this situation and deal with it.

And I think that when you have real safety in a relationship, like you're talking about, real opportunities to be vulnerable, knowing that it can be received, it changes the, the type of friendship that that is too. Like it really evolves it to a new level because it shows you in such a more integrated way, how safe that space can be.

But it requires us to really trust in what that person can provide in that moment. And it doesn't always have to be support because they, I think people might not receive things well all the time, but if they're open to receiving it and you can sit with it and if people need their own space and you need to come back to it, however, you need to process the interaction to come back and actually dialogue about it.

I feel like That's when you start to really level up the relationships that you have, because you're not afraid of being honest, even if you feel like I'm, I'm aware I might sound like a lunatic right now. So you just tell me if that's the case, but you can also add levity to it. I think in that way too.

And I know that like, I'm going to use humor as a defense mechanism, but also as I'm awaiting my friend's response, I'm like, she says something that's constructive. You just take that and you apply that. It's. Fine. You know, you have to be willing to feel uncomfortable with asking for the feedback. If you do feel like you need to confront things in your relationships too.

[00:45:36] Jewel Hohman: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. So there's a few things I want to say about that. I want to start by saying as well, when I said, Oh, I have lots of practice. I've been doing this That is true, but I also want to say anybody, if you are having any kind of rejection moment and you take care of yourself like that, like I work with clients for a minimum of six months.

And that's part of the reason why I do in my opinion, like a shorter timeframe to me, that's shorter. Is because those moments when you know how to treat yourself are so powerful and you grow your skills around it every time. So like to also be a little patient around yourself. Like if you imagine like that fear of rejection that we all have, unless you are, I don't know, Ted Bundy or somebody like, yeah, we all have, uh, like you, we grow our jars and our skills and our space around it where it doesn't impact us as much as much.

So for me, that rejection that I just mentioned that story. It really, honestly, only took like 30 minutes, but like, if that, honestly, it was probably more like five in the car and then whatever, who cares? I just want to say that for everybody, that that will be helpful to them no matter what, and I kind of discounted a little bit there.

Now, what you said about talking to other people about this, and I love the example that you gave, and I want to say too, yes, talking to other people about this, is so helpful and it makes our relationships deeper because it is vulnerable. And we need some level of vulnerability in order to increase the depth of a relationship.

It builds more trust there, right? I'm going to guess that you felt closer to your friend and that they felt closer to you because you were both very vulnerable and open about that conversation.

[00:47:27] Nikki La Croce: It showed me like a new capacity to our friendship and, and also showed me more about her as a person.

Recognizing that I might have read something in her body language, but beyond that also saying to me, I appreciate the way that you approach this. asking if maybe there was something that you needed to do differently because I was like, I have ADHD. I can cut people off. I think I just did. So like, it's like, I think that it's really having people who understand you in ways that go beyond like what sort of a transactional relationship or even just a less in depth friendship is.

It's somebody who's gonna kind of wade in the water with you through the discomfort rather than try to escape the situation because it is uncomfortable.

[00:48:14] Jewel Hohman: Yes, absolutely. And it creates deeper relationships, safer relationships, but also Nikki, you primed that conversation, whether you were aware of it or not to create connection because you didn't go in there saying, Hey, you gave me a dirty look when I was telling that story.

You went in there and you said, Hey, This is what's coming up for me. I just want to hear what you think about it because I want to feel closer to you. I want to feel okay with our relationship. That's a priority to me. I'm communicating that. So you also set the conversation up. To be vulnerable and connective by owning your side, you asked about theirs, you were curious about theirs, and you also, whether it was the way that you spoke, but honestly, you also said, my intention right now is to connect with you.

[00:49:04] Nikki La Croce: And we

[00:49:04] Jewel Hohman: can do that whether we are hurt, whether we are angry, so on. And also what I want to say as well, as we do this all of the time in our partnerships, So often, so female friendships are actually, well, I'm sure the data is more like heterosexual female than I think about it, but they show that female friendships are more fragile than I'm guessing.

I'll have to look. But like hetero male friendships. Oh, I would believe that because I think

[00:49:34] Nikki La Croce: there's more depth to them though, generally, generally speaking more vulnerability involved.

[00:49:39] Jewel Hohman: Yes, exactly. We are more emotional. Our friendships benefit us more. There's this study done that showed like, okay, does marriage, like emotionally and like health wise and life satisfaction, marriage between like two, like a heterosexual male and heterosexual female, uh, It really benefits the male and not the female.

[00:50:02] Nikki La Croce: I think I saw something about this recently. It really benefits

[00:50:05] Jewel Hohman: the husband because of the emotional benefactors. What really benefits the wife in that scenario is her friendships. So yes, however our relationships, our friendships are also more fragile. And truly, I believe that is, there's a bunch of different reasons, but they can all really be summed down to we're not willing to communicate the way we are with our partners.

[00:50:31] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, there's more of a risk.

[00:50:33] Jewel Hohman: Exactly. Exactly. One of the most vulnerable things you can do with a friend is to communicate about how you both are experiencing the friendship.

[00:50:42] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:50:42] Jewel Hohman: But where you are at with it. We do that all the time. I mean, I did that with my partner two days ago on the drive home. Like, oh, how are you feeling?

[00:50:49] Nikki La Croce: I wonder too, um, So, I'm an elder millennial, I'm 38, and I feel like, for me, there was so little dialogue about opening up about your feelings and things like that growing up, and so I do feel like a big part of the desire to help people connect more and really understand themselves more is that like, we weren't really given that language, we weren't really shown how we needed to express ourselves to feel safe while we were doing it.

That we weren't taught how to express ourselves. Um, I think that there was limited capacity for that, but I also think that there weren't really ever discussions around how to have hard conversations. It was like, resolve it if you can, but it always felt it was more like a transactional resolution. Like somebody say, they're sorry, you need to accept it next, right?

In reality, this is how it made me feel. This is how I perceived it. And Something that Brene Brown has said in, um, uh, videos I've seen of her before, speaking about her relationship with her husband was how we have to have real honest conversations where one of us will say, well, like, what's the story that you were telling yourself?

Because what I feel about the situation is what I'm telling myself, but I don't know if that's what you think about the situation. And, and if we just operate on, oh, well, what I think and feel is the reality for all of us, that's how a lot of the miscommunication or tension happens, I think, in those relationships, whether it's romantic, familial, or, or a friendship dynamic.

So until we can feel That sense of familiarity, safety, and comfort with somebody, it's really difficult to tap into that soft spot where you feel it's very fragile and you don't want to ruin something, but it does get to the point where it's like death by a thousand paper cuts sort of thing where like you never mentioned it, you never mentioned it, you never mentioned it, and then all of a sudden, boom, like now you have a catastrophic situation in a relationship that you have.

[00:52:43] Jewel Hohman: I really appreciate you sharing that. I think that gives really helpful perspective as well that, and a lot of empathy and compassion for everybody. Like, okay, we really weren't taught this. And I think too, part of what plays a role in this, And I love that our culture cares about setting boundaries and honoring our space and our peace, but we're really quick to be like, that's not serving me.

I'm done. And friendship, especially like really close, meaningful friendships, arguably best friends, they take about 200 hours to create.

[00:53:24] Nikki La Croce: That's interesting to know.

[00:53:25] Jewel Hohman: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And I think too, this is something because of the loneliness epidemic, because of our, in my opinion, cultural isolation, people are starting to talk about more and more.

And that's part of the reason why I get so into the data, because I want. that to be available and just, like, do my part in spreading that message. There are also other amazing people that are also doing the same. So with the 200 hours to make a best friend, and if you think about how quick we are to cut each other off when we aren't feeling hurt and then we make it mean that they're a bad friend.

When we never really communicated with them in the first place. It's, it's rough. I think too, we, in general, it sounds cheesy, but it's true. I think it's important to have our boundaries, but it's also just as important to communicate and to have repair conversations. It does not mean to tolerate someone's behavior, but I think having a lot of compassion can be really helpful.

So to share an example, I had a friend who, you know, this friend was a girl around my age and she. Ended up like just like stopped talking me out of nowhere and then came back and then she told

[00:54:38] Nikki La Croce: me

[00:54:39] Jewel Hohman: Like hey, I was really jealous of you and I didn't know how to deal with that and she said and honestly I'm still struggling with it and I was so grateful that this person came and talked to me about it But what was so funny was I mentioned it to a really close friend of mine and they were like Oh, you gotta not talk to that person anymore, right?

They're just gonna be toxic and I was like, well, no like jealousy is like a normal human emotion And this person, you know is Did they react the best? No, but did they own up to their behavior, apologize, and like communicate with me about it? Yeah. And I felt closer to this person that they were being so open with me.

[00:55:19] Nikki La Croce: If I'm that person, and I know that I probably didn't show up the way I wanted to, and it impacted a friendship in a way that was, um, not for the best, that I could imagine sitting with that feeling for whatever period of time it is being like, I need to address this and knowing full well that you've got a pit in your stomach going into that conversation because you don't know how the other person's going to respond.

And you're basically putting out the olive branch and being like, Hey, I hope that my accountability here can initiate this discussion in a way that's productive. The other person might be like, okay, but it doesn't change how I feel about like wanting this relationship in my life or not. Right. And so it is a very vulnerable and I think, um, risky thing, but it's essential.

If you, if that friendship matters to you, you're basically saying I care enough to risk it. Um, because right now I don't even have it.

[00:56:24] Jewel Hohman: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that goes for a lot of situations as well. Like I care enough to risk it, to have a deeper bond, to have a more authentic bond regardless of what that situation is.

[00:56:39] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:56:39] Jewel Hohman: And like I said, I felt closer to this person. for doing that and I appreciated them opening up because I, that was a hard conversation. They also, same thing that I told you earlier, didn't blame me for it. They also said my, basically in, in different words, my intention is to, you know, hopefully stay connected to you, but also just to apologize.

They stated their intentions for the conversation. So I felt closer to this person for doing that. And there's a couple of things I want to say about that too. For emotions specifically, like jealousy. Women are kind of raised to not be jealous, to not have competition in any kind of way. And so for the most part, and so we are very uncomfortable when it comes to competition, when it comes to feelings of jealousy or envy or, you know, competitive feelings.

And so that's where a lot of relational regression also comes out is because again, we're pushing it down because we're like, Oh no, I, I gotta be like a nice girl. Right. So I can't be jealous. But if we can own that we are jealous, like this person did, we ended up talking about it months later. And she was like, just even saying that and recognizing that kind of like what I said earlier, she was able to be there for herself and that emotion.

And she was like, I really like have been so much happier for you as you've done X, Y, and Z.

[00:58:06] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:58:07] Jewel Hohman: So, uh, but also, yeah, men are much more comfortable when it comes to competition. They almost like expect it. And so that's interesting. But I think in general, If we can have some more compassion and hear each other's humanness, like that was her being really human.

[00:58:24] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:58:24] Jewel Hohman: Right?

[00:58:25] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. It's very easy to kind of have the snap judgment. And I think that's our humanness as well, right? Like somebody said something, it maybe severed the relationship or created some sort of rift. And so everybody on either side has their own feelings and opinions about it. There is this part where it's like, okay, What does it look like for me to acknowledge what's happened here, give space to that without holding animosity towards that person too, because I feel like sometimes the initial feeling can be spite, not that you want to necessarily wish something bad on someone, but just that, like, well, fine then, or like, be that way, you know, whatever it is.

And to your point about being, you know, female and having these moments where, you know, you're not necessarily like supposed to be competitive. And it's funny because there's like, Unfortunately, I actually think it's like both, which makes it even more conflicting for women. It's hyper competitive, but you can't act like it is, is sort of what I think, um, when you look at it sometimes.

I think we're getting away from this as people are realizing more and more like the benefit of just personal growth, self love and not seeing all of the comparison all the time. But I mean, if you look at like the way that media was when I was growing up, it's rooted in the drama and the cattiness and the, and the complete lack of emotional intelligence and connection to try to resolve things.

And it's more about kind of backhanded, spiteful things that are happening. And when you see that, especially when you've evolved past that for yourself, there's a cringe to that. It's like, Oh God, like I, I could have handled that better. Or like, I would never handle it that way now. And. Even to the point where I was saying to my wife the other day, I was like, God, I, you know, I, I think of myself as a genuinely kind person.

I'm empathetic. I always have been, but there are some things that I think about in my youth and like early twenties and stuff where I'm like, I was really immature and I was really petty and that's not okay. And I don't think that there's necessarily like work to be done around that, but I do feel like there's some ownership that I need to take.

And I think the other piece of it is somebody's intent in a moment might not be what you perceive it to be. And even if it was, like, maybe they can reflect on that and recognize that, like, that isn't how they want to show up. And, and, you know, I think there's a fine line for a lot of relationships where you have to decide, like, is this a pattern of behavior?

And somebody keeps coming back and saying that they're changing, but they're not. Versus, they, like, very sincerely meant this and their behavior has changed and you see that and you can now navigate forward together in your friendship.

[01:01:05] Jewel Hohman: That, Nikki. I'm always asked, always asked, when do I know when to break up with a friend?

Oof. Oof. And it's that. It's, it is, because I think we do need to be more empathetic with each other. And one of the things that I like to say is try to understand where they are coming from. Mm

[01:01:23] Nikki La Croce: hmm.

[01:01:23] Jewel Hohman: And my clients, we talk a lot about, you know, like conscious brain and like protective brain, that's always emotional first.

And it's, you know, it's the reason why we have socially perfectionistic thoughts in a way to make sure we're safe. Like that's its goal. It's all about survival. And if we can understand that part a little bit more too, it's so much easier. So I always like to say, like, understand where other people are coming from.

Really, brain level. Not to condone their behavior, but to really see how it's really not about you. And that goes for whether you want to be friends with them and repair the conversation, or if it's a pattern of behavior and you're like, no. Right.

[01:02:10] Nikki La Croce: Well, I think you can still have, um, empathy for somebody and acknowledge their circumstance while not allowing that to be part of your life.

Like, I mean, even with, um, my ex, there's this part, I used to be very, very, very resentful. Um, there's probably still some of that there, but like, I'd say for the most part, it's more of why would somebody behave that way? And like, when you can sort of think about it from the perspective of, As you said, it's not about me, really.

It's about them and like the way that they treat people or the way that they show up. And yes, it affected me. They're ultimately the people who determine how they're behaving. You started the saying that like a lot of people are like, I don't understand why I can't connect with people or why I feel so anxious going into this stuff.

It all stems from, do you understand yourself well enough to then seek to understand other people and then form bonds that are meaningful because you do have that grasp on like your own, uh, personality and reality that you're living. And then you can also give space for people to show up as their full selves.

[01:03:16] Jewel Hohman: Yes. Yeah. I think too, to kind of add on to that, it's making me think of like attachment styles and that's a very secure thing to do and, but most of us are not securely attached. Correct. So most of us have some, some level of, you know, my brain was wired to behave this way in a very protective way, in a very, you know, I need to make sure I'm safe way first.

And Everything we talked about today is just learning how to be supportive of that can only help you, but the same thing with other people. When we understand that really deeply about ourselves, it's,

I have like one module in my program about taking things personally. And part of the reason why is because once clients really start understanding like, Oh, here's what I'm doing in my brain with myself based on my, uh, Fears, insecurities, my reveal, you know, my attachment style. It's just so much easier to be like, Oh, how, how much is that completely not about me?

And yeah, it's, I, and that's part of the reason why too, I think for most people, I don't want anyone to use this against themselves and to stay in a friendship or relationship that truly isn't supportive of them. And I really think we need to start having more repair conversations. We need to communicate.

And we need to have more empathy for each other and be more accepting of each other and their hu and their humanness as well as our own. So I'm really glad you said that.

[01:05:01] Nikki La Croce: I love that you tapped into the repair conversation side of things and social perfectionism. I think these are items that people are probably like aware of, but can't name.

And one of the biggest things for me when I started therapy, one of my best friends, um, When she started therapy and kind of what encouraged me to go was like her telling me about the concept of naming it. It's like, there's a lot of things that we sort of inherently understand, but we don't grasp. And, and I think this is a good example of that where I wouldn't have really thought of this concept of social perfectionism, but I know that like, There is obviously this piece of me that it's not necessary that like, I need people to like me.

I'd like for them to like me. Um, but I also realized that part of what I do is I really care deeply about like creating a space for people to feel safe because of the times that I didn't feel safe.

[01:06:02] Jewel Hohman: Yeah, I, I really appreciate you sharing that and it, you know, allowed me to almost like reflect as well because this is something I do talk about, but earlier you asked me like about the origins of this or the turning points and truly to what really got me into this work and really deeply learning about it was to solve for my own toxic behavior.

[01:06:33] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. And

[01:06:34] Jewel Hohman: my own disconnection and loneliness because I, you know, and this, you know, it doesn't matter how long ago it was, like, and I love that you said earlier too, we need to Be compassionate with that, understand where that came from, and I, I do understand where all of those like toxic behaviors that I was doing in past relationships, where they came from, and why I felt like I needed to do them, but that is also part of what I do.

got me here as well. So that is also kind of fun to think about. I don't really love the saying, right? Like, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. But I think there is a level of, okay, how can I use this for me?

[01:07:19] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. I really appreciate that too. And you've been so open about your experience in this conversation, which I really appreciate and not.

That I questioned it for a second. I knew, um, like I said, just from our last conversation, even just our first interaction messaging each other, that there is something really special about you and what you're doing and what you're putting out into the world. And I feel like there are a lot of people that not only will benefit from this conversation, um, for the sake of, you know, considering some of these things more deeply that even as we're having this discussion, you and I are both considering them more deeply, right?

Like how amazing is that? But I also feel like I think that my hope for anybody listening is that you're hearing this and you're not just reflecting on, you know, sort of the examples that we gave, but like, if you're feeling tension in a relationship that you have, and you feel like there's something that you need to acknowledge, whether that's about yourself, whether that's to yourself, to somebody else, like sit with that, give space to that, breathe some life into that.

So you can work through it because like, The thing that is the most vital in this world for us, and you know, the research shows it is like human connection is the thing that is the most critical. We are social beings. We are a species that requires connection, collaboration and community. So if We really feel like we're disconnected.

It does absolutely start with you finding within yourself what it is. It requires you to also make an effort to meet people who can meet you where you're at. And if your relationships that you have now aren't doing that, it's okay to admit that. And it's absolutely, essential to find ways to connect with people who are where you're at or will appreciate you for the things that maybe other people haven't been able to see in you before?

[01:09:16] Jewel Hohman: Yeah, I, I almost said, can I just say, but last little bit here

[01:09:22] Nikki La Croce: that

[01:09:23] Jewel Hohman: I want, that I want to add on to that is, you know, When I started this for myself, I ended up, I always say, I created like the friendships of my dreams through like applying this research and through building this relationship and connection, truly relationship, the way I relate to myself, with myself.

And I had wonderful friends beforehand and it only increased those connections, but I had a connection gap. I had a desire for more of an emotional conversation, more in depth, like we really see each other and our flaws and we talk about all these things. That's what I was really craving. And now that I have almost like filled that connection gap for myself.

I now have these other relationships are more meaningful too. So if you are in that situation where you're like, okay, my friendships aren't as meaningful, definitely there's things you can do to make them more meaningful, to communicate a lot of things that we talked about here today can do that all on its own.

And like you said, finding people that appreciate you and so on, like those missions can almost like be the same. That's what I want to offer. And, you know, there's a lot of thoughts I get in the way of us creating new friendships, but uh, I actually, we're launching a podcast soon. We really want to have Nikki on, so make sure you come hear her episode.

Um, but I, in the second episode of the show, I actually bring those friends on, those two, of friends of mine that I made, I like sought them out to like be their friend and I explained to them how I did that and they were like, wow. And they told me afterwards too, they were like, it's so surprising that we didn't even really notice that you were doing these things.

Love

[01:11:21] Nikki La Croce: this so much. Oh my God. I can't wait to hear it.

[01:11:25] Jewel Hohman: One of them told me afterwards, they were like, It's so funny how I didn't notice that this thing, that you were like actively pursuing me as a friend, but also, it's so funny how, like it, natural it felt being on the other end of it as well.

[01:11:43] Nikki La Croce: I love that you said that.

[01:11:45] Jewel Hohman: Yeah, so, it was also too, in this, There's parts of that journey, and I go over it in an episode that weren't easy. There was rejections. There was, you know, like not everybody that I prioritized and invested in did it create this like ideal friendship. And I go all into that and how I handled that input in explaining it to my friends.

But, Also, it's so funny how enjoyable it was for them, how enjoyable it was for me, and how it can truly happen faster than we think. It does take 200 hours to make a best friend, but connection can happen in an instant, and that is always the starting point.

[01:12:23] Nikki La Croce: You know, you said a lot of things stop us from trying to make new connections.

But it doesn't mean you don't want them. I feel like what you're, you're saying is so, so important for people to hear and understand and embody is that it does require effort. Like these things do require you to care. So if you really, really want to have more meaningful connections, then put the energy and effort into it.

And it's okay. If you like have to navigate what that looks like for you in different ways, like you said, with different people, it might be hit or miss, but are you putting yourself out there with people who You feel some sense of connection with to explore that further and look at how incredible these connections that you can formulate are once you take the shield down and open yourself up to the possibility of those friendships.

Like, I think that what you're doing is incredible. And I, I love it. I'm so glad you have a podcast that's coming up, and I can't wait to just see what comes of that and the rest of the work you're doing, Jewel. Thank you so much for being here with me.

[01:13:25] Jewel Hohman: Thank you so much for having me. I feel like this was such a valuable conversation.

I mean, I don't really love that phrase, but there was just so much that we talked about It was just, it was one of my favorite interviews, honestly, because we were able to go. Yeah. So thank you. So we were able to go so deep, talk about so many things, and I just really appreciate that. So thank you so much for having me.

[01:13:56] Nikki La Croce: Oh, I, it's such an absolute pleasure. Gang, that is all for this episode of Can I Just Say, and we'll catch you on the flip side. Gang, thanks so much for joining me for this week's episode. I just appreciate your support and it means so much to me that you tune in week after week. The best thing that you can do to help spread the word about the podcast is if this episode resonated with you, go ahead and share it with somebody else, wherever you listen to your podcasts, or you can go ahead and subscribe to my YouTube channel and share it from there.

I also really appreciate it if you can leave a review on Apple Podcasts because that really helps me out. Give people a better understanding of what this show is about, and what you appreciate about the conversations that we're having.