Embracing Personal Growth with Compassion & Curiosity with Christina Carlson

[00:00:00] Nikki La Croce: So hi, how are you, friend? It's been a while. I know. Good to see you. I just feel like you're one of the easiest people to talk to, and it's always just such a blast to like get on the, I mean, it's more often than not, it's on the mic, um, but even just like exchanging audio messages, I feel like the vibe that we have is like, surely we must have known each other in another life, right?

I feel like you don't meet somebody that you feel like you know. so well without having known them somehow before.

[00:00:34] Christina Carlson: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I tell my daughter cause she has. Had a lot of questions about death for like the past couple years. She's only six, but like this started when she was like three and she was just like, you know, what happens or where do we go or whatever?

It's like kid curiosity. And so I've always told her, like, well, we go back to the earth, like our parts go back and we like, you know, cycle through, we become the trees and the rivers. So, um, every bit of matter. Like all of us has always existed. So it like makes sense, of course, that things would become familiar to us.

And like, I've always been one of those people ever since I was little, it was like a little kid where I would pick up an acorn shell, like fit it on my thumb and it felt nice. So I like held it for the whole time. And then I was attached to it and I took it home, you know? And I think we all do that with like different objects and different things and different people in a way that like, of course, if we part of that became another person later, like.

Of course we'd feel that familiarity. It's like you were that once that acorn that I carried around the park one

[00:01:34] Nikki La Croce: time. I love that. That's so sweet too. I feel like it's such a beautiful way of, um, considering our connectivity to everything and the way that we are with ourselves and with each other.

Everything that's sort of come up lately in any sort of, um, either like spiritual reading or things that I'm listening to or watching is like, you know, come back to nature, connect more deeply with nature. And I feel that on such a visceral level because I'm like a water person through and through. Um, Nicole and I've discussed that if like I were an animal, I would for sure be a sea otter.

Um,

[00:02:09] Both: Oh, that fits.

[00:02:12] Nikki La Croce: Because I'm like, I just like, I love the way they like twirl about in the water. They like hold hands while they're sleeping. They're just like weird, adorable little creatures. And I vibe with their energy. And it's funny because I think that there's this, um, you know, given like our, our backgrounds and I know yours was far more extreme than mine in terms of like religious upbringing, but I just like sort of have this feeling of how much freedom there is.

when you release that and give yourself space to just be like, what are the possibilities? You know, what, what's the thing that like, you know, sort of maybe never crossed my mind, even just sort of the way you're describing connecting to nature and like how, you know, we're all energy and everything sort of replenishes and comes back around in some way.

It's just such a liberating stream of thought to go down and to just like play with that.

[00:03:05] Christina Carlson: It's a thought treat. And like, and why not? Like, yeah, I think the, the rigidity of like a lot of religious systems is like, this is the right thing. This is how it is. Yeah. And like most people's tendency, including mine, when I left was just like, okay, well, I need to find out what's actually true.

Yeah, totally. And so I went about that for a long time. And then it was just like, Oh, I'm just doing the same thing. And It's just in a different group of people. And I was like, but what if, like, what if it's all true? what if there's all a bit of something in there and like, That's why I feel like that, our matter is neither created nor destroyed.

This is like a known thing. Yeah. It's like scientific fact that we become the trees. Yeah. And like that is a way like to live on. It's like this, this continuousness of life is actually just like a thing. It's, it's both grounded in reality and also spiritual. And like, why should those things be separate?

Totally. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm a earth person through and through. Yeah. I like the forest. I like the trees. I like the dirt. Like, I like to lay on the ground. All of the like woodsy and earthy things are like where my vibe is at. And I feel like I really connect with that. Like we become the trees.

It feels the most relatable to me. Of course we just keep going on. We're a part of something. We're a part of evolution. We're a part of wherever this planet is going. Like we're part

[00:04:36] Nikki La Croce: of that. Yeah. I mean, where it's going seems a little bleak at the moment.

[00:04:42] Christina Carlson: Maybe for this blip of time. But like, there's a much bigger story.

[00:04:47] Nikki La Croce: Well, Nicole and I were talking about this last night as we, this is what happens when we're like trying to go to bed and we're like, let's talk about, um, the infinite possibilities of the universe. And it's like No, we need to sleep.

[00:05:00] Christina Carlson: Which one of you initiates that?

[00:05:02] Nikki La Croce: It really depends on any given, at any given moment. I can't even remember what sparked it. Honestly, we, something that we talked about doing recently, and I really, really want to do this is show like our late night Google search threads. Because like the, the labyrinth of the discussions that we have is so, is so interesting.

Where were we the other day? I forget what we were talking about. And it led down like, how do earthworms have sex? And it was so completely unrelated. It was so, So

[00:05:32] Both: unrelated.

[00:05:34] Nikki La Croce: But Nicole made a comment about like, Oh, I think I interrupted these two earthworms having sex the other day. And I was like, what are you talking about?

So then it's like, what does it look like when earthworms are mating? And then I was like, Oh God, everything's happening. And then you're like, the largest earthworm is like 12 feet long. And you're like, what? That's a snake. I don't know.

[00:05:49] Christina Carlson: That's fucking terrifying.

[00:05:50] Nikki La Croce: It might not have been 12 feet, but it was something excessive where you're like, that's not an earthworm anymore.

I refuse to believe that. And I don't want to live in Dune.

[00:05:59] Christina Carlson: Okay, I love that you Google all the things because Josiah and I just had a conversation last night he always does this little thing with his hand like it's a spider to like tease our cats and also Maya thinks It's funny.

And also when he does it with a puppet on his hand, it's like my favorite thing ever It's like so cute and silly. But anyway, it moves weird like spiders do Yeah, I was like spiders go from like a perfect stand till still to like a fucking run. Yeah You There's no in between. I was like, what if we did that right?

What if,

what if people were just like, still running? Oh my God. Right. So terrifying, right?

[00:06:31] Nikki La Croce: Oh my God. Nobody would feel comfortable ever. .

[00:06:34] Christina Carlson: No, and and we don't Google these things. We just make shit up. So I find it interesting you Google Oh, smarter.

[00:06:41] Nikki La Croce: I,

I feel like I just have such a. Both of us do have so much curiosity and we were saying it's like for the longest time we didn't, I mean, I definitely didn't feel like seen or heard or understood at all in my last relationship.

Like it annoyed my ex that I talked so much. That just should have been like the deal breaker of the lifetime. This is who I am. That's like what I do. Um, You're not going to stop it, so you may as well get on board or get off the train. Because it's going somewhere. We're not. Um, but Nicole and I were saying it's like great to find somebody who's your same kind of weird, but she's also so curious.

And so she's like, I would ask these questions to my friends and ponder things. And they're just like, yeah. I'm like, no, let's explore that further. Let's find, um, somebody's thesis on this. We'll go layers deep and, and figure it out. I promise. But it's like so fun to me because I like, I like the curiosity in it.

I like learning and understanding more. And I realized that when I was younger and I was a kid and I was in school, I felt like I, I didn't like school. I think being neurodiverse, not diagnosed and very anxious and stressed in testing environments didn't help. But it always was like, I can't learn the way you're teaching it.

I would have said like, I don't like history. That's not true at all. I love history, but I need to be taught it in a dynamic way that isn't telling me to read a textbook. That's why I love documentaries, because I feel like I'm being told a story and I can embrace that.

And then I can go find my own questions and, you know, dive into things deeper if I want to. But it'sThe way the school systems work, worked, especially, and I have to imagine they're probably similar in a lot of ways now, is you're just confined to this very compact way of viewing the world, and something that's just coming, um, more and more to the surface and being more clear to me, the more I talk to people on my show and just in life in general it's like not even like a fraction of a sliver of all that we could know and understand.

So I have this personal responsibility that I take on for my own education. Sometimes I'm like, I need to fact check this, right? I need to like, make sure that I'm not just like buying into some sort of misinformation that's like, Like gotten too much, uh, SEO, but I, but I feel like really compelled to just understand more. And something that I, you know, really value in looking back at, like my mom, um, is how she was very curious. And just always just had such this thirst for knowledge.

And it's something that was so present in my life that I don't think I even realized how much it affected me.

Like when you know more things, you start to just get a better sense of like your own self.

It's like, it sort of brings it all together in a way that feels really. robust and, um, fulfilling.

[00:09:25] Christina Carlson: Yeah. It's like a sense of place. Yeah. And I, I think like we really deprive people of that when there's only one way of learning. Yeah. I've been talking with my sister about this a lot.

Cause she's gonna, um, sit for her. Master's exam so that she can be a licensed social worker. And there's a lot of people who are working to eliminate this test as a part of like a process to becoming a social worker, because you, like in a lot of tests, like you're asked to do.

and facts, information. And you're not like, and I don't know what this pretty Not practical

application of what you're actually learning.

And I think some, I think some of this test is, but my point is that a lot of the tests we got growing up is facts and data. Like you thought you didn't like history.

I thought I didn't like history or science or math or whatever. I really actually am fascinated by it. Totally. Totally. I've read about all of it since, you know, but it's, it's because I have taken it in different formats than the one that was handed to me.

[00:10:29] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. And in school. The pressure of a test too, I think is a lot is it even the right thing to do to like test people the way that that we do? Nicole and I talk about this a lot and you have a kid. So I'm curious your perspective on this, I would probably uproot the entire education system and be like, these are things that will actually benefit you in life.

Not just like arbitrary things that were decided 50 years ago that we. think are still relevant to teach, which by the way, not only are they possibly probably outdated, but they're so limited in the perspective that they offer that like, it's not even really a value add to like what your potential is.

[00:11:07] Christina Carlson: Yeah, I mean, I think they're I think as far as like subjects go, the subjects that are included are important. I think the format that they're given is just fucking nonsense a lot of the time. Yeah, there has been like small improvements and obviously this depends on the school. Yeah, and the teachers.

Well for sure. You're There needs to be flexibility in how things are presented. Yeah. Not just in the classroom, but individually, because there's just so many different ways to learn and also so many different types of intelligence that could be supported and nurtured. And test taking by nature, depending on how you were raised, can be like, You can just be in a trauma response, which is why we just circle a pattern of whatever, or we just randomly guess, you know, A, B, D, C, A, B, D, C.

You know, like, whatever it is, it's like, whatever your panic response is, it's going to be what's happening in those moments. And it's actually impossible to think logically if you're in a traumatized state. So like, you're not going to get, you're not going to get productive, really like

[00:12:17] Nikki La Croce: I stuffed and flushed it.

I memorized for the test and then I was like, I no longer know that information. On

[00:12:25] Christina Carlson: the inside out, they're just tossing it in that bin. Like a hundred percent. A hundred percent. We don't need that anymore. We got done.

[00:12:32] Nikki La Croce: Yes. Meanwhile, Nicole and I also had this. where it's like, why does my brain choose to remember all these songs that don't need to be there anymore?

I would like to remember more relevant things in my life, but there is something to be said for, I think, your point around the different types of intelligence. And how that factors into like, where are your strengths in learning and something that I, I really valued my college experience. I feel really lucky that I had the opportunity to be in a place that was separate of my home that gave me the sense of autonomy, but also gave me the protection of like being on like a closed campus in a small liberal arts college in Connecticut.

And. The thing that I, I would like to have been a little bit different in that regard, because Nicole went to two years of, of school and did a specific writing program. I went to school for communications, media production, and up until I started the podcast, it was virtually irrelevant in my work. And, What I would have appreciated is like I did a lot of AP courses and things like that in high school and some of them allowed me to test out, but I didn't really need to take another basic science course in college, you know what I mean? I get that you want like the diversity of thought and to give people, you know, options, but I was very clearly not going into the sciences.

I, by like the skin of my teeth passed the AP test to not have to take math in college. And when I tell you that that was like the best moment of my life when I, when I was on the phone with the bursar's office. For my school, and I was, because this was before everything was online, right? And so I had to call them and be like, I can't register for this math course.

And they're like, well, you don't have to take it. I remember getting off the phone and I'm smiling and my mom's like, what did they say to you? And I was like, I don't have to take math. And she's like this semester.

And I was like, ever again. Ever. Ever. And she's like, she's like, don't tell your sister that. I'm like, she's a bio major. She made her bed. She can go lay in it. That's not my problem. Communications. We're not doing the math here. Okay. I'm hiring the accountant. Thank God there are people who do the things that I don't want to slash can't don't understand how to.

[00:14:43] Christina Carlson: Right. Yeah, it's necessary. And like you said, facts under pressure is important in some jobs. And there's people who are good at that.

Yes. They're doctors and EMTs. Exactly. You know, like they're keeping us alive in these crisis moments. 100%. That shit's very relevant. And that is not what the majority of people do or need to be doing.

[00:15:06] Nikki La Croce: Well, that's a really good point too.

[00:15:08] Christina Carlson: And especially like you said, in college, I got a much different opinion about college than I do about like the basics of math and the basics of like history and those kinds of things.

Once you get to college, you're typically deciding on a direction. Yeah. And the first two years tend to be like reviewing stuff you did in high school or making up for what you missed in high school because your education was shit. That's what I had to do.

I had to go do it backwards. And the math class that I had to start with was high school level in college because I didn't, I was so bad at math and I almost failed because it was,

[00:15:46] Nikki La Croce: Okay, so if we fast forward to today and like how much technology there is to help us with things that are math related, right?

We all carry calculators in our pockets all the time. You can Google stuff. You can find answers. Now you can ask AI stuff. If you fact check it, maybe you use that. But like, When we were in school, there was definitely this feeling of okay, you're going to need this someday.

And it's like, yes, but to what extent? Like, did I really need trig? Did I really need calculus?

I didn't need that. And so if I decided that I'm not going into a math field because it's of no interest to me, or I'm not going into science because it's of no interest to me in terms of a career path, then why am I obligated to take a course when it's not actually moving me in the direction?

That's not making me more well rounded.

[00:16:32] Christina Carlson: Yeah, it does. It very much seems nonsensical. I think this would be relevant in high school, not in college. Math is very interesting because it supports your brain to operate in different ways than other things, very similarly to music.

[00:16:46] Both: So

[00:16:46] Christina Carlson: like to a certain extent, the education around it is also beneficial for brain development.

Um, but again, beyond that, If you're not interested in trig, you probably shouldn't be doing trig. You could be doing other things with your time. Like if you're an artist, you should be focusing on that and math that's relevant to your career or your dreams.

[00:17:07] Nikki La Croce: Like if you're like an architect or something, right?

You need math. I can't do that shit. I'm like, architecture is incredible, but like, I Not artistic, and I'm bad at math. So like, probably not my thing, you know? Coming up for

[00:17:20] Christina Carlson: me.

[00:17:20] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Well, and, and I, you raise an interesting point because I, I appreciate the perspective on like, well, yeah, there are parts of this that are important.

I mean, it gets back to the fundamentals of what is it that we need to know at a core human intellectual level to function optimally? in the world. And there's going to be pieces of that that, you know, stay relevant and parts of it that fall away. And I think that makes total sense.

It is interesting, the, the comparison, um, to music, because when you think about sort of things that are universally understood, math and music are it.

[00:17:55] Christina Carlson: Yeah.

[00:17:56] Nikki La Croce: That's, that's a really unique perspective. I like that.

[00:17:59] Christina Carlson: It's significant. It's significant that they're universal languages. And I think that's, that's something that like, just like any language expands your brain, the language of music and math do that as well.

Which is why I think.

I think it's really important to be finding new ways to, to teach those things rather than just sitting with like the arbitrary, this is how it's always been done. You take the test to prove that you know the maths, like, you know, like it, there should be, well, we should have, you know, funding in our education system.

So this could be possible, but like, but

why would we do that? That would be beneficial for humanity.

Right. Yeah. Fuck that. Um, but like there is connection to all things. So if you're an artist, you will use math. How can we bring in the language of math to support you to create better art?

I don't know how, but it's possible. That's not for me

to

answer.

That's not for me, but like, you know what I mean? Like, these things, although a little stretching and challenging, can be taught in a way that different brains understand. It's just that we've refused to cater to anyone other than one specific type of person.

[00:19:15] Nikki La Croce: Yeah.

[00:19:15] Christina Carlson: And in doing so, we've then said, This is the ideal type of person. It's like when a system and structure just supports itself. And I feel like that's true with the education system.

It's like, well, look, these types of people, just not as smart. Because you decided what smart was.

[00:19:33] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Arbitrarily, by the way.

[00:19:35] Christina Carlson: Yeah, yeah, you just made it up and then you decided it's like that's not what that means. That's not that's not real

[00:19:43] Nikki La Croce: I love that you went there too because Nicole and I had this conversation the other day again at rabbit hole that we were going Down and it was just like everything's arbitrary Really, everything's arbitrary when it comes to the way systems work and the way that, you know, things that we do culturally are defined or whatever they might be.

It's like somebody made it up. Somebody made it up at some point and then a bunch of other people got involved and they followed the lead and the, I had this amazing conversation. With this woman, Rev Bridge, she's incredibly insightful, like so, so knowledgeable and has this incredible perspective on how like, part of what we're doing is, perpetuating these systems that are in place by being complacent with them, which is, I think, something that we know, right?

Like in a lot of ways, it's the way it is now, which is kind of shitty or it's worse, but it could also be better. The thing is, is that you have to get so many people on board. To make it better, all these people are tied to these like preconceived beliefs and the systems in the way that they work right now.

And you have so many people struggling to feel like they can actually make a difference. And something that I've always said in my work, there is power in numbers, but the thing is, growing the numbers can be very slow going. And it puts a lot of people into a place of despair and lack and, impossibility.

And what I love about the way that I'm able to connect with people here and hear, you know, different conversations, she and I were talking about, um, just racially, you know, the way that the systems are built. And I had spoken with, um, another guest, Matthew Solomon, who has this, uh, film out re imagining safety, which is about, um, abolition and re imagining.

re evaluating our system of incarceration. And it was so powerful and so insightful. And I'm like, God, like we were taught to be part of the system because that way it's harder to break out of the system, which means that like control is perpetuated.

And it's like, you experienced this with religion on like a very profound level, but we're all experiencing that. Like that is happening to every single one of us.

I know that people don't want to hear that.

I know that people are annoyed by that, scared by that, but to me, the people that feel that way are probably aware of it and so uncomfortable with the fact that they know and what it would require to actually change it, to like actually participate, for all of us to really come together and collectively shift something.

It's like, it's not easy and it's not quick. And so it starts with, can you accept that the system is rigged, whatever the system might be? I think collectively, there's a handful of people in charge with a lot of money who dictate the way all of us live our lives. And we can't do anything about that unless we all agree that we're not going to let it happen anymore.

[00:22:45] Christina Carlson: Yeah. And I think there's something really important happening there. Um, which is a shame response. If one person does take responsibility, it tends from a trauma response. It tends to be like an over responsibility. And like, I all of a sudden need to fix all of this myself, or it's like a, just a shame response.

And so we can't look at it and the healing of like actually being able to be with shame and whatever it is that we need to confront and be with. So we can hold space for that. We can walk into that and say like, it's not my job to fix this. I'm going to do my part and also live, you know? Um, the perspective that I like see this in, and even as you were describing this, I was like getting an image of this.

We are one species and we are evolving and so is the world. Right? And we're having all kinds of shit happen that's malfunctioning because of choices we made, whatever, like terrible choices. I'm not trying to diminish that, but in looking at this from like a billion year perspective, like something's gonna give, like something's going to change, but the process of evolving is tension.

Mm. It's a lot of tension.

[00:24:02] Nikki La Croce: Oh yeah, and it's tense.

[00:24:03] Christina Carlson: And right now we're like, we're literally like shooting ourselves in the foot, not to be like graphic, but we are harming ourselves so much right now. Mm hmm. And. That, that is also a part of what happens. We don't know how to exist as a global community yet.

We only just tapped into that. We don't know what to do. We've just decided to sell each other cheap shit. that's what we did with all of this connection.

Now there's like a bunch of us who are like.

really triggered and overwhelmed and shamed and then angry and like rightfully so. These are just our natural human reactions to all of this. And those of us who have been benefiting from distance from the problem or the pain are like, no, it's fine. I'm over here. I actually don't feel anything in my left hand.

It's just my right foot. Like we're good. That pain is it. getting closer and closer and closer. We're gonna have to do something or we're not going to make it.

And that is a part. And yeah, and that's it. That's, that's what happens in evolution, right?

Yeah. We don't, we don't make it. We change, we evolve and that takes generations and I fucking hate that.

And also, also it means that like, that there is life to be lived in the middle of this process of change.

[00:25:24] Nikki La Croce: Oh, that's so beautiful.

[00:25:26] Christina Carlson: Yeah. I feel like it's the only way to cope. And actually do good. Yeah. Because like, uh, there is very interesting, like our And maybe this is from my growing up in religion, but I tend to over couple with a problem and then I, I like feel it.

And then I'm overwhelmed by it. Because of that overwhelm, I can't actually do anything productive, but complain about it.

[00:25:48] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:49] Christina Carlson: But if I'm able to like regulate and witness and see what's going on, I can hold that pain and also hold that I am well in my body right now. I have energy to give and then I can give.

You know, then I can go continue to experience joy in other areas of my life because that is fucking necessary for me to stay alive to continue.

[00:26:11] Nikki La Croce: Well, it's the balance, right? And I give, yeah, I, I love everything that you just said. And I'm so glad we're recording this because this is like what I love so much about it. our conversations is that, every conversation could be a podcast episode.

But I, I feel that so deeply, um, what you said about it affects you so much. And so you have to be able to, sort of give space to it without allowing it to occupy you entirely.

I totally feel that. I've definitely had my moments of hyper vigilance that then are very debilitating because I'm like, this is, I, I think you and I even had a conversation where it was like, but we can't solve all of it. That's not our job. But when you're someone who feels so and wants so much for humanity to see the collective benefit that could be. It's like, Oh God, like there has to be something, right? And so you end up sort of scrambling. Spreading yourself so thin in like the way that you're thinking about it, you can't possibly bring it to fruition in even like a small, meaningful way because you're, you're stuck in this pattern of shame spiraling or like just really overwhelming thoughts about the negative things that are happening in the world.

And, I said to Nicole, as human beings to be able to cope with what is going on in the world, we literally have to have a cognitive dissonance because look at all the crazy things that are happening. There are all the things that are human initiated, right? Like the wars and the fact that violence has really never solved anything.

So like, Congratulations on this super unevolved way of thinking.

But if we set that aside for a second and just look at like the way the earth is responding to our mistreatment and that we've known since the 70s, or if not sooner, I know at the very least the 70s around what climate change is doing and we chose to ignore it.

And because of that, you know, generations past were placated into believing that it wasn't a problem, and now it is, and we have this comeuppance, and the world is very literally sort of falling apart at the seams with these natural disasters that are occurring, and there's this feeling of, I want to travel, and I want to go do things, but is there really anywhere that's safe to go? You just don't know, and so you have to allow yourself to live in the moment, like you said, be present in the moment, take the risks that you're going to take that are, you know, um, maybe don't seem so risky, but just know that you accept the risk of, of life as a human being on this earth and going to new places or trying new things, but you have to have a cognitive dissonance that allows you to believe that when you go do this thing, Or if you, um, you know, make a certain decision that everything will be okay.

Because if you don't have that mindset in some small part, then like, God, I fucking fall apart entirely. I'm like, Oh my God, the world is literally crumbling around me. Where do I go? How do I save myself? Um, you know, and I don't, It's such an unhealthy internal battle to be fighting of like, I want to feel safe and comfortable and confident in what I'm doing and where I am and who I am.

But I also, you know, when you consume too much of what's happening, that is out of your control, it's just incredibly daunting.

[00:29:21] Christina Carlson: Yeah. I want to, I'm like curious about like, like, is it cognitive dissonance or is it growing a greater ability to be with what is?

Because like our brains and our like, Systems are trained to like continue what's safe and to continue to like, in many ways, pretend like we know the future. We do that a lot. Like we pretend like we understand reasons for things because it calms us down. Like we try to make reason out of everything.

Right. And I think part of our evolution as a species is learning to be with what is without needing to force story and control on it. And I think that's a hugely powerful thing. And it's also one of the hardest things to do because like you said, you can have an amazing hike and you could also die on the hike.

Like you just don't know. And in order to like be with the reality of all of that, it takes a level of like, embodiment and being in the present moment and being exactly where you are and with what's going on only right now. Yeah. As well as, as well as observing your mind, do what it does. And imagine all of these things.

Remember all of these things, know all of these things, because all of that is going on all the time.

[00:30:45] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Yeah. That's such a, an incredible perspective. I love it. I feel like it's always so eyeopening when we chat because there's like, um, You have such a gentleness to your delivery of very, um, important topics.

Uh, and it's something that I've appreciated from the start with you. And I think it's what makes it so easy to connect and to have these conversations because there's an immediate presence of safety. So it's like very easy to feel seen in your presence and to feel understood in your presence and to feel like held in like the dynamic of the conversation with your compassion in the moment.

And so it's like really transformative to be able to sit and chat with you and to receive like that care through the conversation.

[00:31:31] Christina Carlson: Oh, that means so much to me.

[00:31:36] Nikki La Croce: Of course, I really mean it. I feel like very profoundly changed by the conversations that we have. When I kind of go through my day to day and I realize like little things about my life where I'm more considerate of certain things or more open minded to things, um, there are definitely several of those that come from the impact of discussions we've had or messages that we've shared.

You know, you think about, like you said, we're trying to figure out how to operate as a global community. We've never done that before. That's just such a really, it simplifies it in a way that like I hadn't really thought of. And it's like, yeah, obviously like we've never done this.

Get it together guys. Why can't we be better? It's like, cause you don't know.

Uh, right. But, even just saying that it just makes me feel like not so alone in the struggle of trying to cope with that.

[00:32:20] Christina Carlson: Yeah, you're not, you're not alone. It's really beautiful to hear that's what is coming across.

I've been sitting with a lot of things within myself lately,

and, um, one of them has been, like, annoyance and anger. And impatience. I like have such a low, from my internal perspective, from what I experienced, I have very little patience. I'm very easily annoyed and very easily angry.

Nobody that I know and have ever had a relationship with would tell you that, but that's what's going on inside.

And, um, I've been practicing like being with it. Observing that as not something that needs to go away, but rather just a part of, like, how I experience reality. And in doing so, it's diminished so much.

[00:33:10] Nikki La Croce: Well, yeah.

[00:33:11] Christina Carlson: Just, like, I just want it to be acknowledged, that I am a full spectrum human and that includes these things. I'm not just always these other things, the things that I want to be. I can be all of it, and I will always be. be all of it because my controlling tendencies also give me the ability to get shit done and organize.

My annoyance helps me change things in my life in radical ways. Like all of these things is, I'm not good because of the good. I'm good and bad because of the what is.

[00:33:42] Nikki La Croce: Well, yeah. Well, I like that you said it's not just about like being the things that I, I want to be. And I love the term full spectrum human.

It's so true. We all are. And like, if you're trying to act any other way, that's not authentic. And

[00:33:59] Christina Carlson: it's so tempting. Oh, that's what everyone wants us to be.

[00:34:01] Nikki La Croce: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think that that's part of you, in a way, trying to like, this might not be the right term to use, so bear with me and feel free to modify as you see fit, but is that like trying to manage how other people see you or perceive you?

[00:34:16] Christina Carlson: 1000 percent because it's control. It's a desire to create safety.

Like, I really want to, I want to destigmatize something for my own benefit here, which is, um, a controlling person. It's shit to be in a relationship where you feel controlled. And I know that that's a reality and that happens. That's not really what I'm talking about here. I want to talk about the person who tends towards control instead of the other person right now.

And I think there's a lot of compassion that also needs to be heaped on that person because the desire to control our environment is real. way more relevant and way more prevalent than our pop culture would suggest, which is that controlling people are only people who manipulate someone in relationship in a negative, awful way, right?

That happens. That's part of it. And also like so many of us tend towards control because we felt unsafe and we continue to feel unsafe. And because we don't know other ways of coping with it because we don't know yet how to be. with reality as it is. In this particular situation, in this particular moment, we tend to try to manage it.

Yeah. Try to manage how other people see us so that we, so they don't leave us so that we feel protected so that we get the praise that we feel like we need to keep living. Like we're fucking geniuses. We get our needs met however we can. And sometimes it's destructive and sometimes it's dangerous and sometimes it's wild and unheard of, but like that's, that's life.

[00:35:57] Both: That is

[00:35:57] Christina Carlson: the drive to keep existing and it's fucking brilliant and awful and beautiful.

I think that the, there is a deep wound at the heart of someone who is trying to control things and acknowledging that within myself is just so like tender because I'm just like, Oh, this, this part of me is just like, don't leave me.

Please don't hate me. I hope that I still deserve love if I'm also like a bitch and you know like that's like the deep inner kid part of me that's just one part of me but she's there and that's it's important that she be heard and honored in this whole spectrum of all of the me's that are existing here.

You know?

[00:36:42] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Well, I think that's really insightful the way that you shared that. And I appreciate it so much because I mean, I was in a really manipulative relationship, but it was controlling in such an insidious way. It wasn't with this person who was like, you can do this, you can't do that.

Right. So that wasn't that type of control. And so then I became controlling because I was trying to manage the circumstances.

So I wasn't constantly Going through traumatic and extremely stressful events. And even just talking about now, it's like I can feel it, you know, and, and I was actually talking about this in therapy today, how, you know, I acknowledge a lot of what happened and I can always, I've said this for a while to her that like, I can speak very objectively about the circumstances that happened in my life, but one of the things that I realized that I've been feeling more is that I, and I said it out loud for the first time today with sort of this recognition of, okay, that's clearly something I need to, to poke at a little bit more, which was, I was really scared.

for a long time because of the circumstances that I was in and I was being put in these situations that were just so beyond what I thought my reality would be. And so of course I became hypervigilant. Of course I became, yeah, I'm going to say controlling with air quotes because it wasn't this sense of like, I'm trying to control you.

I was trying to control the situations that I didn't want to be in. I was trying to make sure I wasn't compromising myself and my well being and continuing to abandon myself. And when you're with somebody who doesn't respect your boundaries, and who will sort of reinforce the idea that you're being controlling, that's a way to get you to abandon yourself.

So, so I

totally get what you're saying and I, I think they're coming from a little bit of different places, but I really respect your perspective and I, I believe that that in my experience and from what you're sharing is totally valid.

We spend so much time, like you said, sort of in the pop culture realm hearing somebody is controlling you get out and it's like you play a role In the relationships that you're in.

And sometimes you have the ability to leave and sometimes you don't. I've mentioned this on multiple podcasts since you and I spoke and you had made the comment to me, I'm sure you tried to leave plenty of times before.

And you said, you know, you left when you could. Okay. The thing that I also think about in that conversation is that you said to me, it was probably like, you know, you'd start to make some momentum and you'd go and then you'd get pulled back in and then you get some more momentum and then you go back and so it's like you need enough momentum to break through that, that barricade and to, to get to the other side of it, to be able to look back and reflect and understand it.

So when you're in a relationship where either you're being the controlling one or somebody else is being controlling, it's very hard. to look at that with an objective eye and be like, this is why they're like that. This is why I'm like that. So if you don't sit in the stillness in the present moment, like when you're in a committed relationship, you have to make that choice because what you're doing not just impacts the person that you're with, but it impacts you and your ability to show up and your ability to be the version of yourself that you want to be.

The version of yourself that you want to be As you said, it's full spectrum human. It doesn't mean that you don't experience anger or feel, you know, moments where you want to have more control, but acknowledging that and bringing it to the forefront of the conversation. So you can navigate through it, not just on your own, but to share those moments with the people in your life who are affected by that and try to them understand why you feel you need that control? It's not to be like, help me become less controlling, but it's like, if you can understand where maybe I need validation so I don't feel the need to be as controlling, or I need support so I don't feel the need to to try to manage things as much, Now you've opened a dialogue that allows you to come back to what you said before, which is evolve.

You can evolve independently in a relationship and you can evolve collectively in relationships. And I think that the way to get to that is to sit with it, embrace the fact that that is part of your experience and acknowledge that, bring it to the dialogue so that you can actually decide if there's something to even change there.

[00:41:10] Christina Carlson: Yeah, I think the hardest part of any change is actually looking at it, you know, and, and I think whatever process it is in, no one can decide it for you. I was talking with Josiah about this earlier today is like, if you go to therapy and you're like, I want out of this relationship or my relationship is awful, but you don't want out of it or to do anything about it.

Nothing can be done for you because the therapist or coach isn't there to do anything for you. It takes some time to support a person. to value themselves where they're at right now, enough to empower them to get the gumption to leave. Because there's a little shame cycle that I see in that.

And even in myself and experiencing that dynamic was this like, Okay, I'm going to fix it. I'm going to try really hard, really hard. And then something went wrong. It fucked up.

What did I do wrong? I'm terrible. Oh, it's great. We can fix it. I'm going to do this. I'm going to get it right. And then we mess up again and then it keeps happening.

Right?

[00:42:24] Nikki La Croce: God, it's so relatable, dude. It's so relatable.

[00:42:27] Christina Carlson: I swear we do this with everything. And maybe that's just me projecting onto the entire world, but I don't think I'm alone. It's so like. Within our culture to do this. And so within religion, this is just the process of how we get, we stay stuck.

And I think until we step into that cycle with deep compassion and allow ourselves to like comfort. Us exactly where we are. Right. To just even be with our humanity in that. Yeah. Not the best part of ourselves, not the like hype me up, like I totally deserve better. 'cause you might not be able to believe that.

[00:43:08] Nikki La Croce: Well, that's a really freaking good point, right? Because a lot of people are like, I don't deserve it. And something that I feel like has really opened my eyes to this, Christina, is up until about a month and a half ago, maybe had spent like minutes on Reddit when I Google something and it comes up in a search result.

For whatever reason, something clicked in my brain was like, just like, see what's happening there. Like what, like what, what's going on on Reddit. And I was like, forget the side of Reddit where people are combative and whatever. I'm in like the self improvement therapy, narcissistic exes, grief support.

Because I was just really curious, what are people doing and where are they seeking community? And when I tell you that, like my, literally my therapy session today, I was like, I don't really know where I'm going to go with this. I didn't have anything, you know, top of mind.

And I said, well, I started to realize that like, Integrating into these conversations with people on Reddit, who are like, I left my narcissistic ex like a week ago, but I don't feel like I'm strong enough, and I'm like, no, okay, you gotta fucking get the hell out of there. Like, stay out.

You're already out. Stay out, right? I know what that feeling is. You feel like you've escaped, but you have an unhealthy attachment to this relationship and the dynamic. Right. And so people are literally congregating being like, I've made this choice or I want to make this choice, but I'm scared and I don't know what to do.

And they're desperately seeking support. They're seeking support. They're seeking validation. They're wanting to be seen. They're wanting to be understood because especially if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, for an example you're not getting that. Even with the grief support, like you've lost somebody, but nobody around you knows what that's like, or can experience that.

I heard something or read something the other day where somebody said, like, your perspective is your gift. And I was like, Oh, that's brilliant. Isn't it? And I'd written it down on my whiteboard desk and it was there for a while. And I was just like, I don't know why, but that's just going to stay there.

And I, Remember just kind of having this moment the other day was like, this is what it means, right? I went through everything that I went through and because I've been willing to shine a light on it for myself and to go there and sit with the absolute fucking discomfort of all of it, I can now see these moments for people.

My intention wasn't to go there and be like, I'm self promoting, right? I want to go here and see the people who I want to be open to, you know, the possibilities of who they are and, and to be able to see themselves enough to like move through their toxic patterns and whatever.

And What I love in the moment is being like, here's what I can share with you from my experience. And because I understand these things now, I really want you to understand it.

Because if I had known these things when I was going through it, if I had sought support when I was going through it, maybe somebody could have helped me. Right. And I think that to your point, this is a long winded way of saying, If somebody's not open to it, they're not going to make the change. And there are some people where their comments are like I think all therapists are liars. But I was like, okay, well, like that's, that's on you. But the people who are like, oh my God, thank you so much. This is what I needed to hear. Because I get to say from the other side of it, I swear to you, it's so much better.

I swear to you, it's so much better. But you have to be committed enough to yourself and to your point, believe it enough that you will stay in that spot and move forward from there instead of going back. And it's very hard and not just in relationships with narcissists in many circumstances in our lives.

That pull us back, but it's that wound that we're like circling around constantly and we're making decisions because of it instead of, you know, evolving and moving through it.

[00:46:37] Christina Carlson: Who. Yeah. There's, there's this shift that's absolutely terrifying that goes or that has to happen at some point for you to stay out and, and move on to something different. It has to be like, instead of you create home for me, I, this is home. I'm home and I will, I am the only one that can ever actually always be home. And I can co create home with other people, but there, there has to be like, instead of this outward reaching for validation, there has to shift to the inward reaching and that can feel. really isolating and it, it, I don't think it should happen without support. I think support is necessary. I think this like nonsense of us trying to hustle through something on our own is just not, that's not how we're meant to be. We're, we're social creatures, like us having community support groups, therapy, like we co regulate and in order to, to make that shift of searching within ourselves, we also need to be held with other people to develop that. That's what we were, you know, that's ideally what happens when you're a kid and you're supported in that. Um, ideally being like, I don't know that anyone has ever fully experienced that, but that's like the goal, right?

[00:47:55] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I saw something, I saw like a TikTok or something the other day where this person was like, but you know, when people talk about like normal mental health what is that?

Like, who is the bar that we're, we're setting here, right? What does that really mean? And they go on this diatribe about it. And I'm like, but actually though.

[00:48:10] Christina Carlson: But actually, I know! And it's like, I told my sister, I was like, who has the time to like, do all of this parenting stuff right?

[00:48:21] Nikki La Croce: My mom always used to say, if there was a book on how to be the perfect parent, we would all buy it.

[00:48:27] Christina Carlson: Yeah, and nobody would be it anyway. We'd all just live in shame. It's like, come on! Like, this is just fucking nonsense. And like, so much of it is beautiful and brilliant and like, yes! Incorporate! as much as you can and, like, heal and, and also you're still gonna be controlling, angry, annoyed, loving, compassionate, kind, creative, annoying, like, you're going to be all of these things because You're you.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, unfortunately I didn't magically become awesome mom when I had a kid. I continued to be Christina. Well,

[00:49:11] Nikki La Croce: but you know, it's a duality to hold also, right? Like you can be who you are and be awesome mom, um, or awesome partner or whatever it is, right? Yeah. But we've created this mindset of, I have to be right for everybody.

Which leaves us not necessarily doing what's right for us. And when you do what's right for you, you're actually better for other people. And this is assuming that when you do what's right for you, we're coming from a place of like, you've done the work, you're healing, ethical, you're ethical, you're kind, you're not like a lunatic.

Right. So I think that there's the obvious caveat there, but sure. But it's like, you're, you're coming from a place of self love and in doing that, then you can project greater love to other people. Mm

[00:50:01] Christina Carlson: hmm. Yeah. And I think like, why, like who said besides The church that we had to be good. Like we, we are good and we also all have darkness.

Right. And we also all have our shit. Like it's do good. Yes. Yeah. And be human. Mm. Like our, our goal should be to, not to as much as possible, not do harm for ourselves and other people. Yeah. It shouldn't be like, to cleanliness is next to godliness and like, what, you know, it shouldn't be like this arbitrary appearance thing.

Yeah, yeah, well, totally. Yeah, it's, it's just so, I mean, I don't know how else to say it. It's just whitewashed. Like, it's, it's very, like, like literal and theoretical, you know what I mean? Like, just polished, like polish the shit out of it and whitewash the shit out of it. Like, it's that, it's so inhuman. It doesn't let anyone actually be present with what is and have the capacity to live without that shame cycle that keeps us all stuck in these systems that are harming us.

Yeah. Because we're tired.

[00:51:18] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, totally. Okay. So I adore you so much. I just do. Gang, thanks so much for joining me for this week's episode. I just appreciate your support. And it means so much to me that you tune in week after week. The best thing that you can do to help spread the word about the podcast is if this episode resonated with you, go ahead and share it with somebody else, wherever you listen to your podcasts, or you can go ahead and subscribe.

Subscribe to my YouTube channel and share it from there. I also really appreciate it if you can leave a review on Apple Podcasts because that really helps give people a better understanding of what the show's about and what you appreciate about the conversations that we're having.