The Transformative Power of Words with Kristof Morrow

[00:00:00] Kristof Morrow: I wanted to help other people and Shakespeare, which is adjacent to what I do as a writer, which is, uh, I share with John Steinbeck. He said his whole mission as a writer is to help people understand one another. And I, I'm completely, I share in that. If you, if you have a kind of, uh, maxim or belief that you feel offers purpose and something worthwhile and benevolent, then you need to like really hold onto that and really, really Use that to build, uh, your experiences.

[00:00:36] Nikki La Croce: I'm excited today. I'm talking with Kristof Morrow, and we had such a lovely introduction call. And I have to say that Kristof, your message to me when we first connected on Podmatch was something to the effect of just sort of sensing that we might connect from what I had put out there and then looking at not just your profile, but sort of your story and who you are and how you've.

become who you are and gotten to where you've gotten in your life just really resonated with me. So when we first spoke, I felt like whatever sense you had when you first messaged me about being a guest was just reiterated when we actually had the opportunity to meet. So I'm happy to finally be sharing the mic with you and recording an episode together.

Yeah, easily my favorite pre interview discussion. Well, thank you. I appreciate that so much. You have such a unique story and there's so much to it. So I'm sure that, you know, we'll, we'll get into as much of it as we can in this conversation, but I guess before we just head straight off the deep end, I would love to ask you, is there anywhere that you want to begin with your journey as somebody who is an author, Army veteran, and you also have Tourette's.

So that is something that has played a significant role in your life. So I don't want to assume where you want to start. I want to give you the, the opportunity to pick. Well, it's, I think, uh, a philosophy that I try to sustain is that, uh, you need not to lose your faith in others and to always submit or allege that people are worth, um, your trust.

uh, Hemingway said the best way to learn how to trust someone is to trust them. Which is, you know, he was otherwise a very cynical guy. It's also a harsh truth, isn't it? It's like, yeah, it's sort of the whole like, um, when people show you who they are, believe them. That's yeah, that's absolutely true. And, or otherwise Oscar Wilde said, after a certain age, everyone, every person has the face they deserve, you know, cheerful smiles.

And, you know, uh, I, I think, uh, I've had a lot of reason to, to lose trust in people, uh, you know, based on those who were meant to love me the most, uh, or, or just otherwise, uh, and failed in that, in that sense. And so I, I realized, but, but that came still, uh, remember to a greater thing that I needed to, in self interest, I needed to do something worthwhile while I was around.

And so I, Shakespeare, I told myself when I was young that I didn't want to be boring in conversation. And that I would live an exciting life, or at least try to, adventure. Yeah, I love that. You have such a unique experience. You know, I, I think what's beautiful and incredible about the human experience is that all of our experiences are unique, obviously, but yours is definitely one that there is an emphasis, I think, whether or not, um, you would highlight this yourself, um, as sort of the, the topic of resilience comes to mind when I think of you.

And I think this is, this is for a Recall and think about, you know, as I was preparing for our episode, something that you, you shared with me in our intro call was growing up in a very abusive environment. And for anybody who knows a little bit, I think at this point about psychology and, um, sort of childhood development, the early years are the most formative.

And that's where a lot of our self. beliefs come from. And so I'm curious if you'd be open to sharing a little bit about, you know, what your childhood was like, um, in, with, I guess, sort of within mind, like how you went from what your childhood was to the path that you're on now. And I know that's like, there's a lot of in between there.

So not asking for a straight shot, but more just sort of where do you feel like you began in life? And we can kind of navigate that into where you are now. Well, I think it's uh, one of those things where you're sustaining, it's cognitive dissonance where you're sustaining two thoughts that are competing that are at odds, uh, and believing both of them simultaneously.

Right? So I Shakespeare, uh, I was, I was meant to feel worthless and or less than or inadequate. Um, I, when I was, as a kid, um, I really don't remember very much. And that's a symptom of, Trauma, obviously. I think a lot of people know that Shakespeare. Um, but I was, I was beaten really vicious. In fact, when I, when I have to tell people, when I talk about this, to demonstrate that, I would say that my dad would hurt himself hurting me.

You know, like he, you know, so, uh, it's. It was really, uh, very violent. Uh, The Reign of Terror. I lived, uh, I really, I really don't remember a day like that where that wasn't happening, uh, to me. For it could be really, his caprice was, was, uh, was relentless. It was, you know, an imbalance. Uh, at any moment, like it could be for any really, it could be for any reason.

Like, uh, I remember once, uh, one, one particularly bad time was because I walked ahead of my brothers and sisters home. Wow. Uh, after school. And I, I walked too far ahead of them. So you had brothers and sisters, were there, did you feel like you were more the target of the abuse or was that collective? They readily concede.

I was, I was probably 90 percent of it. Uh, and I had, you know, three siblings, right? Shakespeare. I was the oldest boy though. Um, coincidentally, I was the oldest. Boy, I received it the worst. I was the first to graduate high school though, out of my siblings there. So I was the third, I was the third born. Oh, wow.

Um, and that, and that, and that's really meant to highlight how awful it was there, not to discount the intellect of my sisters, my two older sisters. It's, it's really about what happened. Um, it was very traumatic, uh, situation, trauma inducing. Um, Yeah, so for me, uh, I, I was experiencing that and told I was, you know, just less than and not worth, uh, love or affection.

I felt like through, um, the violence and, uh, what they would say to me, uh, and, but also seeing movies and TV shows and not really people in person. It was some, some people in person, uh, but the notion of like nights and of being a good person. Like saving the world and being a hero and that sort of thing.

Uh, I was really outrageous and, and what I hoped to even achieve then. Cause I, I think it was, I think I, I had to, uh, uh, hold myself to that because I, I was so, I like to tell people also that, um, I only let my ego get this big cause I needed to climb out of a well. I appreciate your humor because I feel like you have such a lightness to you with having gone through something that's.

So devastating. What I admire in the way that you communicate is like, you have a lot of clarity about how you coped with the situations that you experienced. Is that something that, like, you started to develop at a young age? Or is that something that you've had to kind of go back and inspect and be able to like navigate through as an adult?

Oh my God, I was painfully self aware. I remember I was like six years old and I told myself I would never treat my own children. Wait, my dad and mother treated me. That's really how I think my worth as a writer arrived, uh, was born of that because I, I watched people so closely. And this is also a symptom of trauma and abuse.

Like if you have a parent who you have to emotionally sort of check in, and see how they're feeling. Um, you learn to study faces and, um, and micro expressions. Yeah. And, and so, um, I meet very few people that, you know, I, but I can read people's faces very quick. To me that it's much more apparent, like what they're feeling internally, even if they don't want to present it openly.

I can, um, generally, you know, it's not always, but generally, um, uh, I'm much more, uh, uh, I'm going to actually go back to something that I thought earlier when you were saying like kind of seeing things in your, your life, like, um, you know, the idea of like a night, somebody who can kind of save and help people.

Did you find yourself, um, at that young age or even in later in life, like kind of using those practices? Uh, opportunities to experience life through sort of, uh, escapism with like fantasy and things like that, that like helped you navigate that cognitive dissonance. Like were you, like, did you read a lot of fantasy?

Did you watch a lot of fantasy related things that like kind of helped you through that? I think I, I fantasized a lot. I imagined a lot of being rescued, um, saved from those circumstances. Uh, I don't remember necessarily watching a lot or reading a lot. In fact, I think I've counted, I counted, I've read only a little over a hundred books in my life.

Um, Shakespeare, uh, which doesn't flatter me. I understand. But , I mean, to be honest, I don't know that if I really had to be honest with myself that I've read, um, fully a hundred because I get very invested quickly and then I drop off. I mean, a little bit of that's a DHD, but some of it's just a function of not having found things I'm interested in.

So I listen to a lot of books. Yeah. . No, that's great. No, really, I, to me they're interchangeable. Yeah. Consuming, consuming. Yeah. Because Shakespeare, um, and so for me, uh. A lot of my ability to tell a story, especially one that, uh, was born of truth, uh, was me trying to get people to help me. Yeah. Cause I would tell adults and they would sort of just listen and then nothing would happen.

And then it was a story, it was like, I had to keep refining the way I explained it. And so words became precious to me in a way that was very solemn, I think. Um, but, uh, I've tried to, uh, generate some kind of, um, beauty from that. Well, I definitely think you have. You've obviously, um, you know, the book that you've written has had a profound impact on a lot of people.

So your words are definitely making a desired impact. And I think that's so incredible. You had messaged me somewhat recently after we had first spoken about, um, your book being referenced as reading for a college course, I believe, correct? Yeah. They, they Shakespeare right. For, uh, classes studying Victorian literature.

Yeah. Uh, in Dickens. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It is a dream come true. I know that so sounds modest, which I, I, I guess I can see what it is, but, uh, I, Shakespeare, um, that it's, that's a, that's a bar that's hard to, to reach, uh, in the first place because, uh, it's, um. Yeah, they're, they're, yeah, they're very, they're very picky with, with that sort of thing, especially literature professor.

In terms of your growth, uh, both as a person and as a writer, like, was there sort of a turning point for you where you found yourself finding freedom through your writing? I don't know. I think, uh, it's hard to, it's like falling in love without any senses, I think, if you didn't have your senses available.

But you still knew there was something there that just made you feel at home. Uh, and then you slowly develop, and then your understanding of why you love it so much. Shakespeare for me is, it's really about the music. Uh, I have a great, uh, extraordinary amount of affection for them. I don't, it's in fact like if I have the subtitles on, I just end up watching because I just like the way they look.

And I, I like the, to every person, they have this very, uh, unique relationship with them. However, there's also a larger, a macro definition that is fixed. It's more rigid. It's more established. Like the word quarantine, for example, used to be less, have less meaning to everyone. Now it's a little triggering.

Yeah. And so the, the, the evolution of the, of words within a society and stuff and trying to understand people's like our, uh, our lexicon, our relationship with words on the edges of our vocabulary. Um, really fascinated me. Uh, and there's so much, there's so many qualities towards it that I could talk about that, but ultimately, um, I, I wanted to tell stories and so, uh, it was when I was, I was in the Navy, I had, uh, my friend's mother, Deborah, she gave me a, uh, She bought me a laptop after she won a disability case against the city that she had started like years before.

And she won a bunch of money, and she said she would buy me a laptop, and that's when I started writing on it, on a laptop. And uh, when, and then, uh, Shakespeare. Uh, after I got out of the Navy, I started working in uh, writing in a community college. Like I was writing while I was in community college, which my, yeah, and I, I, I developed from there really.

I mean, that's such a generous thing for somebody to do. You know, it's not even about the money as much as it is the opportunity that it afforded you to like find a place for your words. You were very much self taught, correct? Oh, yeah. I taught myself. Yeah, completely. Yeah. And what was that experience like for you?

Um, did you find it to be like invigorating to you, uh, because you have such a passion for it? I really hadn't, uh, been presented with any evidence that I could learn it from someone else, um, very readily. Uh, because I, I realized that through studying people's, like the words they would use, their word choice, everyone has their own lexicon.

They have their own, uh, established way of speaking and, and, and, uh, communicating. And I, and I knew that if I wanted to do something, work Shakespeare worthwhile as a, as a writer, as an artist, um, it would have to be developed on my own. Um, but I would be studying the words and. presentation of other writers that I really admired, uh, and whose truth could be, uh, uh, like, like Diggins, um, and Mark Twain and Shakespeare, which is ironic.

And I say Shakespeare. To be honest with you, I had this moment where I was like, I want to ask about this. Um, if, if that was like a decisive, um, like way to manage your tick. Cause I know some people pick like, pick words that they can kind of. Uh, at least this is something that I've witnessed when I've watched other, uh, I've watched some shows and they're like, they try to find like a word that like they can use instead of profanity.

Shakespeare. I Shakespeare. Um, I, I have OCD and, uh, almost invariably my minor born of, uh, of that. And since, uh, since I discovered just how beloved Shakespeare was. I've always wanted to have that for myself, achieve that legacy, uh, something similar, Shakespeare. And so, uh, I've always given him considerable thought, um, just his existence.

And what his name generally represents with people. And so doing that, it, it just, that's where it was, it, it created itself. It's just something I think about a lot. So my brain just, yeah, I don't, yeah, it's not, it's not, uh, It's not by design. I wish, I wish I could do that. But I, I see that that could be true though.

I see why that could be certainly true that they do that. Yeah. I mean, I, I won't act as if I have any substantial knowledge on the matter, but I, you could see that when, um, I forget what show it was that we were watching, but, um, the one guy when he, it was like some sort of like meeting people, dating, whatever.

Um, His tics would become far more significant when he was meeting somebody because he was very nervous. And so, um, like some of the things that would come out were like comical, but also profane. And so you're like trying to kind of like, you can see the person's trying not to react because like they understand, but.

I, I think that like there was something else that as you watched the episodes go on, he started saying other things. And so I appreciate you answering that because I feel like for anybody listening, if you're not familiar with Tourette's, if you do not experience this, then like, it's very helpful to have real honest conversations where somebody is willing to explain it to you, what your lived experience is with it, because otherwise we have no way of knowing.

So I know it's a little bit of a diversion from, from the initial topic, but when I think about the fact that. You're a writer and words are so important to you and the way that you think and construct your conversations with people. Do you feel like it has been challenging throughout your life to communicate effectively in speaking versus writing because of dealing with Tourette's?

Shakespeare. I didn't become symptomatic of Tourette's as far as I know. until I was 19 and I was in the Navy. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, um, which is really, um, is even outside the DSM 5's diagnostic criteria for, uh, Tourette's, which is supposed to be, it's supposed to present before Shakespeare, it's supposed to present before 18, um, which is a really funny and rigid.

I was gonna say how arbitrary. Yeah, it's a stiff, yeah, yeah, Shakespeare, because I, I, I matured emotionally. I matured, uh, much slower than my peers. And that's also a consequence of trauma too, uh, because if you're, uh, if your whole brain is committed and dedicated and devoted, loyal to surviving, your nervous system, uh, and your nervous system is on fire constantly, hypervigilance, right?

Uh, then, uh, You don't really have the resources, uh, the cognitive resources to dedicate to like the piece that you need that's required to understand, like to study other people and to be a part of the social experiment in the same, uh, in the same helpful capacity that other people have. So for me communicating, yeah, it has been really hard.

Uh, it was really hard for me to develop friendships and relationships with people, especially my own age until I was, um, until I was like in college, really. Yeah. Um, Shakespeare and like after the Navy, even. How old were you when you were in the Navy? I was nine. I started, I joined when I was 18. Okay. Yeah.

Shakespeare. Um, yeah, but I, I, yeah, I really struggled, uh, for a long time. Maybe also because I had no confidence in the notion of communicating whenever you, because when you try to talk to people like your parents, and that is a complete failure over and over again, you start to. I mean, self doubt is, uh, is just a symptom.

Yeah. There's a consequence rather. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that context because, you know, something that I think is interesting to consider too is like when it comes to, so I experienced like a great deal of trauma in my twenties, early thirties. And when you said like your nervous system is on fire, like there's that hypervigilance like I can't relate on the childhood level.

Um, I'm very lucky that I was raised in a loving household where I, that was expressed to. But I also know that like things that happened in my childhood affected like the relationships that I chose and therefore, you know, that sort of, it was like, um, like a little ember that was like waiting to spark if I got into the wrong relationship.

And so I really understand that visceral feeling of, um, You know, you're sort of shrinking yourself to the circumstance. And then once you release yourself from that circumstance, you have a lot more opportunity to access the things that you're feeling and put words to it. And something that you had said around like speaking to vocabulary and having the words for things in general is, I think.

We all struggle sometimes to get the right words to say things in the way that we want to say them to begin with. But in particular, I think now is kind of unique because we speak about, you know, things that we've learned about our lives. So we look back and we think about, um, you know, childhood, whatever.

And you kind of go, well, I didn't have the words for it back then. I didn't know what, what to call it or how to express it or whatever. And so I feel like there's this collective sort of awareness that we're all gaining that the things that happened. we might not have even been able to process that they were happening because we didn't even understand that it was a thing that we needed to think about or, or consider in the way that it affected our lives.

Yeah, Shakespeare. I think it's a, I think it's paranoia that, that, that is, uh, that truly has a font of, uh, it's a font of truth. Like, so, you know, uh, like when you know that you can, that at least this potential exists and, uh, that how greatly it affects other people that have gone through that. Then you, I think you're, you're sort of prepped to take, to, to, uh, bring it in and to, uh, format to your person, like to your, I don't know, to your nervous system, I mean.

What would you say, you know, has been some of the more important lessons that you've learned, um, in allowing you to access the parts of yourself that are Giving you the opportunity to experience more, you know, self love and, um, deeper connections with other people because as you said, you know, relationships matured later in your life, um, just as a result of like where, where you were and your experience and where you came from.

Hmm. Um, it's hard to say, uh, but ultimately, like, yeah, I knew what my strengths were, uh, and I tried to capitalize on that. And I mean, I mean, to be frank, like I'm a white guy, so not a lot of barriers of entry for me, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so Shakespeare, um, yeah. And so, uh, I really tried to take advantage, and also, I think if you construct a purpose, uh, behind what you hope to do, like for Shakespeare, I wanted to help other people, and Shakespeare, which is adjacent to what I do as a writer, which is, uh, I share with John Steinbeck, he said his whole mission as a writer is to help people understand one another, and I, I'm completely like, Um, and so, uh, if you, if you have a, a kind of, uh, maxim or belief, uh, that you feel offers purpose and, uh, You know, the notion of, uh, something worthwhile and benevolent.

If you, and if you can even achieve that, uh, then you need to like, really hold onto that and really use that to build, uh, your experiences. Like, so I, Shakespeare, if I wanted to help other people, I became a corpsman in the Navy as a medic for people that don't know. Um, and then when I got out, I went to, I became an EMT and then, uh, I was a 911 dispatcher.

And then I got into journalism after that. And all of these are, are some sort of service and try to serve a purpose, um, beyond myself and had a mission beyond myself. Um, and that will, I think that offers like a, a draft of what you hope to succeed, like in terms of like what you hope to achieve in that field.

What was it like for you transitioning from a career in the military to journalism or and, and medical, um, Obviously high intensity situations to journalism. You know, I, to be honest, uh, the, I would, I would, uh, say that civilian life can be very, very, very, um, Intense and working in the medical field. Uh, in fact, maybe sometimes even more so, uh, because, uh, they are different kinds of, uh, destruction to like, just, uh, your overall view of like, what is good in this world.

And like, was because in one way, like when you're in the military and people, um, you know, you, you lose shipmates, uh, like we, which we call it in, in the Navy. Um, That is a different kind of trauma than it is when you're in the civilian world and you, you know, when you lose kids and, uh, and you know, moms and dads and everybody, you know, all these different people, uh, you know, the spectrum of us, of our existence is then, um, it's so they, so they are, they're different.

Uh, and I would say, uh, yeah, just as potent in that, in that sense of, uh, yeah, it's of damage that it does psychologically. What type of journalism did you start out with? Like, were you doing like coverage in the field or was it something separate? Yeah I'm gonna run the base because it's so funny. Okay Because it's so it's it's so outside of like what my interests are.

Okay. Okay. Look I love playing sports But I cannot, I cannot bring myself to watch them. Yeah. No, I'm, I'm, I'm actually very similar in that way. Like when I stopped playing sports, I stopped kind of caring. Yeah. Right. So Shakespeare, I mean, I will, I will watch it. And, but it's always a hollow you know, it's pretty hollow in terms of my, my enthusiasm for it.

And I'm, I'm really fed by other people's enthusiasm, really more so. Yeah, no, I can, I can totally relate. Yeah. So like it's, it really, cause like if the stakes are high, there's gotta be a context to it. Like, you know, I love watching sports movies where the, you know, cause you can, yeah, you, you, you build a relationship with the team knowing what's going on.

And, uh, yeah. Uh, so I started in sports. I was the sports journalist, which made no sense whatsoever. Um, but again, I, I was covering like a high school football team and. Um, look, let me preface this, in Texas, football is king and it is so stressed and so, uh, heavily funded and, uh, and you know what? It's a lot like, uh, like govern, it's a lot like government in the sense that the, the, the districts can be gerrymandered in a way where, so like you get all of the six foot four, 240 pound kids.

are going to one school because the coach, like they, they figured out how to get to where, oh, we're going to have this other street. Cause we heard this family moved in. Oh my God. I'm sick. It's so like, I've heard of, I've heard of coaches, like take, like having students live with them or living in like it, like taking care of their living arrangements so that they could live and be on the same team.

And yeah, that's, that's real. That's so real. Priorities. This football is, I mean, uh, I think the highest paid. employee of like the University of Texas, which I think, and that's like, that almost, I think that's true for everywhere. Yeah. Like more so than the, the school's president. Oh, yeah. University president.

Yeah. Anything like that. Yeah. The football coaches. So, um, I was covering a team and They were, it was a very poor district, they didn't have a lot of money, uh, very great, they didn't have facilities very, very much at all, and, um, they didn't have the pool of players, like, to, to, to build their roster, and so, I, They, they lost, like, they lost every game that I, every game, every Friday, every Friday.

Every Friday. I mean, I felt, I felt, I felt for the coach, man, because you can't do, there's nothing you could do. You're like really hoping for an underdog story there. Yeah. Well, yeah. And the kids, and the thing is, the kids, like, the kids like start to feel the treat too. Like they start to lose interest.

You know, and you can't blame them for that because it's, uh, it's so, it's so, uh, uh, draining. No, no. It's like the, it's not level. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's just inequitable. Yeah. There's so much that they are going without. Um, and, and not everything is a movie. And so whenever you just strip a whole community of resources, you know, you're not going to get like the situation where they can rise up and take over and win and everything and proving the human spirit is the most dominable thing.

Yeah. The dominating part of, of what, uh, brings you success. What a microcosm of the state of the world. Yeah. So, right. Right. The football team taught me this. Yeah. So I had to, yeah. So I had to every, every week, every week. I'd have to go to the games and I'd go to watch the games and I'd see what was going on.

I had to photograph and do that. And then I'd have to come back to the. The office that and the newspaper and it was like nine almost ten o'clock at night and the paper goes to print at midnight So I had to write the story I had to get the other journalist stories for other games and and sports events and then I had to assemble the paper That that section of the paper and have it ready before midnight And so like I would have to call a coach after the game's done Every week I'd be like, so coach, how do you feel?

How do you feel about the game? And I, it felt awful. It felt awful because there's nothing you can do and there was nothing he could do. And so, uh, Yeah, it was, it was terrible. Did you end up moving away from sports in your journalism career then? Yeah, I was, uh, I was willing to beg. I was willing to beg, um, you know, cause not for a multitude of reasons.

Um, and mostly because I wanted to do something that I felt, uh, was worthwhile for me. Um, and I asked if I could work in news and they had their writer leaving, the main news writer was leaving the paper. Um, and then. She, so my publish publisher slash the editor, the, the editor in chief, she said, yeah, you can, you can do it.

Oh, nice. Yeah. And so I became like the main news writer and, uh, I, I did agriculture too, which I, which is relevant to my experience. I grew up on Shakespeare. I grew up partly on a farm. Oh, okay. Yeah. And in our farming town, um, you're from Texas originally, correct? Yeah. Okay. Born and raised. Yeah. Um, yeah.

And so, uh. Yeah, I covered the, I was there during the hurricane Harvey where they hit, uh, Texas and, I remember the smallest cotton farm there lost 300 grand. I feel like there's no particular direction to go because there's so many questions that I have. Um, so like, when you, when you think about where you are now in life and your career, take it however much you want to include your, your career in this, because I think as a writer, that's something that you're sort of always doing.

Uh, to some effect, or at least thinking like a writer, probably to some degree. What do you feel, um, has been like the biggest shift in your mindset from when you were doing journalism to where you are now being more public about your, your life experience? Because it's not just, It's not solely about your, your written works.

You have, um, you know, a lot of content that you create just sort of about your own lived experience as well. Whether you're putting that to paper in terms of a memoir or it's something that is just really core to you and what feels right for you to express in the written word, like that's a much more vulnerable place to be.

Yeah. I think Shakespeare, um, whatever I Shakespeare, whenever I, I started to develop, uh, more serious, uh, symptoms. of Tourette's. Actually, let me rephrase that because I don't like to grade my own suffering or my own symptoms. The severity of my symptoms, I think is, it's an unhelpful way, um, to describe and a way to feel about what you're going through because, uh, I don't want to discount other people's Tourette's, uh, and, uh, how symptomatic they are because You know, uh, especially, especially for the reason for this reason, uh, I, if I've known people who have like Tourette's that they thought was a minor thing, because they would like grunt or make a noise or something.

And then they come out like years later and they learn that they have like an extraordinary amount of damage to their throat, like because of what, because of those tics and being like other parts of their bodies, um, for that reason. So I wouldn't want someone to think, Oh, I don't hit myself in the face.

I don't gouge my own eyes out. You know, I don't, I don't hit my hands on things like to the point where like my, my, my hand is like, looks like that now compared to this, which is like normal, you know, looks relatively flat and normal because I've hit things so much that it deformed my hand a little bit.

Uh, and so, uh, when I started to experience symptoms inconsistent with being able to focus, I think I stopped writing for five years. From 27 to 32. Um, even though I won an award for feature writing and, um, and photography at the paper, uh, from some press associations, I, uh, I still had lost, um, a great deal of confidence and I withered, uh, by doubt through doubt.

Um, and, uh, so after, when I became 32, uh, it was just after my 32nd birthday, I had been working with the British Columbian office, Uh, work BC to find me a work and given the parameters, uh, and, uh, my condition, they told me they couldn't find me a job. There was nothing I could do. Uh, and she was really, her name was Erin.

She was really reluctant to tell me that, I think for reasons that should be plain. And I, and I said, uh, and she said, okay, well, you like writing, you said, so maybe you should just do that. And I said, okay. And then we hung up. And about 10 minutes later, I wrote this book. I started writing this book. Yeah, that was, that, that wasn't because I had no, at that point, there was no other way for me to run.

There was no, I could, I couldn't generate no diversion, no excuse because I, there was nothing else I could do. And then I needed, I know if I wanted to contribute, to do something that would help other people, uh, in a way I felt was meaningful and true to who I was, uh, and something that I could do was of quality.

Uh, I was going to die. I felt, I felt like I was going to die because I would, I felt like I was pointless and a burden. It's not true at all. Even if, even if, even if I hadn't written the book, still wouldn't be true. Um, but, uh, uh, I felt that way. It was really, it was an extreme that, that afforded me the, um, yeah, the sort of hopeless beginning there.

Cause I had no other, yeah, I had nowhere to turn. So it's interesting to look at it that way. I I'm sure in the moment felt like a hopeless beginning, but you know, looking at it from my seat, it looks like a hopeful beginning. I've become a great believer in divine timing and things sort of working themselves out the way that they're going to.

And while I imagine that must have been like a real challenging moment to hear sort of that, Sort of like the system giving up on you, like, sorry, there's nothing for you, even though you're totally capable. The Canadian government. Come on, guys, get it together. Of all the places. You know, that's very defeating, no matter who you are or where you come from.

But. What a gift for that person to have even just like lit the spark of the thought that like, maybe you should turn your attention to this thing that you really care about because that's just such a great example of sort of nudging that first domino to fall and then look at how, um, impactful it's been for you and for other people.

I, I think that that's, One of the great examples of not really seeing it in the moment, how it's going to play out for you, like, definitely have had some of those in my life, but then when you're on the other side of it, you're like, God, I really actually probably couldn't have gone any other way, or I wouldn't be in this position.

Is that a little bit how you feel with that? Yeah, Shakespeare. I, yeah, it is. I, uh, additionally, like I had my ex, uh, she told me basically every day. that for seven years that we were together that I needed to write. You know, she told me that every day. Um, and so, yeah, so for her, she was, she was really a large part of it, but there was a sort of a, a very thin wall of resistance that, um, the work BC counselor, Aaron sort of revealed.

And it was like, she punctured the wall and then the flood of certainty that someone else had afforded me who had, uh, Who put it in me. Yeah. Destroyed it. Like, yeah. Yeah. It was really helpful. Yeah. So I started it. So can you share a bit, um, for listeners what your book is about? And I know you have another in the works currently, right?

I just finished actually the second that so this is volumes one and two. Um, I just finished volume three. You finished that fast. I feel like, because it was like, since we last spoke. Shakes me. I, uh, yeah, I, I actually, which is really, yes, I did. I did it really fast. Um, yeah, I, so I started it. Uh, I, I finished this one last year in February, technically, but I was doing this pretty significant, um, Okay.

Rewrites for certain parts and rephrasing things up until about July. Uh, and all the while from March until, uh, I guess March until March of this year. I was writing volume three at the same time. And volume three is, is like two thirds of this, of this length. So it's, it's like 400 and something, 450 pages or something.

It just flows out of you then. Yeah. It's Shakespeare. I, I don't, I don't, the thing is that it's, it's really funny because people think like, well, why did, what does it take to be able to do that? Um, you, if you want to write a book, you have to like, realize that You have to inspire yourself. And so, um, and the way you do that is by learning as much as you can about the world, because then you can include events, you can include notions that you've been exposed to, and you can, you can offer your own view and, uh, form of that.

Uh, and realizing different events. You know, like for, for example, this is not in the, I don't think this is in the book actually, but there was this, this team of people that came to kill the king of this place. They show up and they're in the castle. They've gotten all the way to the, the, the king's chambers or just outside of the king's chambers.

Somebody runs into the thing to go, to go tell the king something and they discover he's already dead. And then what happened? He had a heart attack. And so this people, they shut the castle down. They're like, and they're like, we didn't even get to do it. And we got caught anyway, because he fricking died too early.

And this is interesting, right? So there's stuff that's like intrinsically interesting things that interest you, uh, like concepts and, and historical events, they could teach you so much, uh, explore history and science. Uh, really, really thoroughly, as thoroughly as you can, because, and, and discover the way that the relationship that people have with words, because they could, like we talked about quarantine earlier, there's so many, once you.

Like, when I look at a word, I see a thousand different ways of how it's connected with us, like all the different ways it's been used that I can think of. And then what is the planet of it? Where's its planet of, uh, of existence? Like, where does it, what is the planet of thought? Every other variation that it's been used for it, it orbits that, that it.

So, yeah, so you, you begin to like understand, like, it's the, the most essential truth about that word. Um, and that's what you have to do. You have to look and, so once you do that, you can, you can, every time I see a word, that's what I see. Like Hemingway said that, um, every, every time I see a word, it's like I'm seeing it for the first time.

And I know what he means by that. I love it. It's transformative. It can be very transformative to your understanding of the world and how people talk. Yeah. Well, I love that you made that point to, um, just sort of in the way that we look at words or we respond to words and using quarantine as an example, I think is a really good one because it probably for a long time up until 2020, that word would have had minimal, emotional effect on me, if any.

It would have just been an acknowledgement that that is a word. I understand what it means if something's quarantined. And I almost feel like if anything, I probably would have used it in a joke, like sort of like been quarantined, you know, like as something flippant. And now it's like, I'm extremely uncomfortable with it.

It's like, because it brings back a rush of, you know, collective trauma for the world. And so I feel like it's such a good example because everybody probably has some feeling on it now that we never had before. And it's a great way to expose like our relationship towards in a way that a lot of us don't think about, particularly probably if you're not somebody who writes or speaks frequently in like more of a public format too.

Um, or, and it doesn't even have to be like, you know, millions of followers or anything like that. I think even just, thinking to choose your words wisely, based on the environment that you're in, based on what you're comfortable sharing, what other people are comfortable receiving, but not necessarily allowing that to censor you, but being more conscious of like, how can I express what I want to express that will have the greatest impact?

And. To have the greatest impact, I think we have to be cognizant of how other people receive those things. Because if their perspective on a word or words is different, you're now kind of up against like their preconceived notion of what you mean versus what you're actually trying to say. That's why it's so important to like be true to yourself when you're writing it because you are going to have your own view.

And it's going to be, um, constructed by you completely and your experiences, which really truly are unique. And so you remain faithful to that, uh, you will find a very lovely and empowering way to like communicate. Mm. It's essential. Okay. So I asked the question and then we diverted because I had other things that happened.

Um, so can you share a bit about your book and like, do you, and because it's, it's a Because, well, so it's I'm so bad I have a marketing person now and they're like, you don't say, you don't talk about it. I'm like, I don't forget. But here's the thing. Like I always say to people, like I've been, I've become a lot more firm in this stance as I've grown with my podcast.

And it's, it's, And it's not in terms of like growth in terms of proliferation, like my feeling of like what feels right to have conversations about on the show is like, this is the show where you come to like, say the things that don't get airtime everywhere else. If there's something to promote, like I want to help promote that.

I think it's important to, I wasn't going to ever lead this conversation with tell me about your book, because what I want you to do is tell me about you. And what I'm curious about in terms of you sharing about your book is What it represents for you, um, because it it's fiction, correct? Oh, yeah. Right.

So, so it's, so it's not like it's a memoir, but do you, do you feel in writing this that you, as you said, like you're pulling in your perspectives, things you've read, things you've learned, are there elements of the book that are related to your lived experience that are sort of, um, you know, metaphors in the book or something that is more, um, you know, in an environment in the book, you wouldn't necessarily be like, obviously this happened in Kristoff's life, but like writing it was sort of a manifestation of that.

I actually, there's, there's so much actually. Um, there's, for example, I have a, I have a whole, uh, paragraph. Where I talk about, uh, there's a little kid who, uh, he is, uh, very, he's much like I was when I was a kid. His name is Vodstock and it says, If one has never earned witness to a child discovering at last they belong, I beg you seek it out.

For upon your closing breath, an angel's descent, such alms bearing your mark, rewards a deathless peace. Something about unruling the troubles of the mount. I can't remember it now. As your soul becomes unruled by the troubles of the mount, you know, Um, which is your body, like when you die, you'll be at greater peace.

Uh, Vostok slept with the, uh, you know, it's, uh, Yeah, he was, he was much, uh, he's much happier, uh, uh, With dreams of flying, uh, his married capture of permanence because he was finally accepted. Uh, and so a lot of it is, is informed, uh, by my experiences for sure. Um, but I also, everyone else's experiences that I can, that I felt like I could impart, uh, in a way that's, uh, relevant and true.

To the spirit of that event for them. Uh, and so like, uh, Shakespeare, but I also, uh, the book is, it's a work of epic fantasy, but it's literature. Um, there, which is, there, there are not a lot of epic fantasies that are, that have that, that can be called literature. Truly. I just, unfortunately, um, it's a slim, a lean field of writers doing that.

So you just really niche down. Yeah, well, it's just because it's hard, Shakespeare, it's hard to do, I think, um, because I have over 180 characters with dialogue in the first, in this book. I can't process that, Kristoff, I can't. Yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot of, um, A lot of it was an extraordinary amount of work.

Um, but, uh, oh God, I love it so much. 'cause it, it, the scope of it, I felt like I wanted to explore, um, the macro and the micro in a way that you could understand the relationship. Mm-Hmm. . So the book is about, uh, it opens if you've ever seen Game of Thrones, I have not, I'm sorry. Or, or you, but I'm sure listeners have so you know of it.

You, the people who have, who know of it. If you know of it, you know, uh, that there's a bunch of different people in different parts of the world. Yep. And then you see how they come together near the end. Well, my, my book is structured very, very, very similarly. The first three chapters are different people, different parts of the world, different people in different circumstances.

And then you see how they're related. Um, and so it opens up in, in a, in a place that is known, uh, colloquially as paradise. Um, it's a, it's a kind of paradise and, and, uh, and it's true to the nature of one. It's very peaceful. Um, and people live for thousands of years and when you die, you come back, you can, you can bury yourself with a seed of a plant or whatever, and you come back as that immediately.

Like you're born again into that form and you could still talk and stuff. Anyway. Um, but it's really, it's, uh, it's an allegory for, uh, generational wealth inequality, uh, and the people that, uh, and so. The people who have, um, the wealth now, the older generations, they live in that kind of financial paradise, and As you read the book, you discover just how exposed and, uh, relevant the outside world is to them, and like how, what can, and like what chaos induced out there, how it can affect them, even if they seem to be shielded from it completely.

Uh, cause you're not, you're not able to go there unless you, because you'll, you'll just die. You'll just die trying to get through this. Uh, sort of, it's a mist, it's, it's kind of like a force field in a sense, you can't get through it without dying if you, if you're not welcome. Oh, wow. Uh, and so, yeah, and, and, and so these people feel they're so insulated and it, it has realized the concept of a utopia, but it's, it's not at all.

And you start to discover them in, uh, the other chapters, which are dealing with empire, slavery, you know, pirates. There's, I mean, there's, I mean, every, the spectrum of our suffering, I tried to explore. Um, I tried to do, there's a whole bunch of really amazing older women. I like, uh, here's, here's the thing.

I, I like to, to describe this way. Um, young men, older women understand the value that young men provide in society. They do, they just do, but young men do not understand the value that older women offer. And so I tried to demonstrate. healthy relationships between those two demographics. Um, and not, I don't, uh, everybody wants to talk about the suffering and just, it's sort of like, if you've seen Game of Thrones, it's like, watch this torture and watch this thing happen to this woman.

And it's like, that's, I'm not about that. I wanted to show something more wholesome. If you were to split, if you were to find Lord of the Rings and make it a little bit much more gritty and take out the elves. There's almost no magic, and even the magic that is in there, you might argue it's something born of science rather, um, but anyway, uh, yeah, I wanted to focus on demonstrating good quality, what we're capable of doing, how we can cooperate, um, yeah, and so, um, So much of it is, is, uh, is about, um, showing our worth, even, you know, everyone, anyone can achieve great things regardless of their, their size or their, or their place, which is something that Lord of the Rings really stressed, but I, but it's really gender exclusive.

There's not a lot of women that really do very much, uh, you know, extraordinary things in terms of fighting in wars and that sort of thing. There's, it's just not there. Um, uh, and so there's, it's, there's no racism or sexism in directly referred to. It's alluded to in events, of course. Um, but it's not, I, there's no one say you're a woman, you can't do this, or you're, A man, you can't do that.

Imagine. Imagine. You did. You did imagine. You imagined it and you put it in a book. And I love that because I, I think that that's such a statement on where we are in the world. I have a couple of thoughts on what you said. First of all, I love the comment about, um, like the relationship between younger men and older women and like that, that dynamic in reverse as well.

And what speaks to me so much about that is like, the acknowledgement that there is wisdom to be gained from each other. Um, and the only thing that limits that is really our perspective on it. And what I think is really profound about what you're doing. The timing is impeccable, Crystal. It's like really impeccable.

It's impeccable. I think about that all the time. I think about that all the time. This Unfolded the way that it was supposed to is how I feel. Like, I think the timing of it, as I said, like I've become a believer in divine timing for the circumstance that unfolded for you with like, when your writing career, like in terms of this writing really kicked off, but Like, the world wouldn't have been ready for this if you had done it sooner.

The world is really freaking ready now, man. They are ready and they are like, wanting this. And what is incredible is like that type of representation of the story is, you know, you were saying it's not like, you know, magical or whatever in this regard, it's like, it's, It's about humanity. It's like the, the message of like what it really means to be human.

And there can be elements of fantasy in that, but the desired, you know, output of that and the impact that it can have is like, can you see yourself in this? Can you see somebody that you know in this? And can you reflect on that regardless of if this is fictional or not? Like what an opportunity to see the potential of humanity through the words that you're sharing.

Yeah, I, um, I totally agree on the timing thing. It makes me think of it. There's a book. Uh, I cannot remember the name, but it was, it basically described how like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and a number of others. They were born at such a time. They were like 14 years old when they were exposed to computers and coding for the first time.

Which was like prime time to really be learning that sort of thing. And so they were able to develop businesses before like really anyone knew what to do with it. Um, Shakespeare and Shakespeare. So, uh, for me, who is a, is a hugely, um, affect, uh, I adore literature, um, for the reason that, uh, I feel like it has a, like the notion of, uh, developing prose that is meaningful.

Um, and really, uh, explains the nature of things like in a way that is poetic and, uh, and enduring, um, was really, really important, uh, to me to, uh, to obviously, because that's my main focus is literature. I put it, I put, I wrote an epic fantasy because I wanted it to be accessible and exciting and adventurous.

So, um, Shakespeare, it's an adventure, uh, truly in, in the, in the, in the greatest sense, uh, And because there's so many books out there that are literature and they're just, I love them. I love them. I love them because I understand like its value, like with the words, it, there's a lot of nuance to like, you have to, to know and to, to be able to like, discover like the power of it.

But, uh, for a lot of people, they just, they want, they want stories. Stories have much more, um, structure and they have, uh, and they're easier to impart. Um, and. And they have the lesson, they still contain the lessons, but without, um, you know, the the finer points, which can be explored on their own. Uh, so I wanted to write stuff that was intrinsically interesting.

Uh, and, and I, uh, when I talk to people who've read my book, uh, they say that they experienced every emotion, everything that they could possibly feel. And there's every kind of person in it. So like, you will see yourself in somebody. Yeah. There's 180 people. I don't even understand. Like, I can't, I'm telling you, my brain can't grasp it.

My wife, my wife writes and, um, she has told me about this, uh, novel that she had written previously. And she's like, maybe one day I'll come back to it and just the way she describes it. And I can guarantee it's not 180 characters, but I feel like sharing this conversation with her Um, honestly, I, if it doesn't inspire her to, to write more, I feel like at the very least, she's going to want to know how you made it.

So you add 180 characters dialogue in this book, like what? Yeah. I had to count. Yeah. I counted them all with some of my friends that I've made through my book. I talk to you every day now. Uh, and that's the best part about having done it is that I have real friends now that, uh, I know that people talk about, you know, your friends should love you regardless of what you can do and that sort of thing.

But I love that I began our relationship by showing what I can do and what I would do to show love and affection for others. And, um, I, I put thousands of hours into it. Uh, And I cry, I cry myself to sleep at night wondering if anyone's going to read my book, uh, and you know, now it's on every continent except Antarctica and I've sold like, I've sold in more than 50 something countries, including places, there are gay relationships in my book, like plenty of them.

There's, yeah, and, uh, uh, And so it's illegal in some of the countries that people are reading it in. And probably Florida. And probably Florida. Oh my god. Oh. The fact that you said that, like, about making friends and, and having that opportunity to show up fully, it's like, yes, it's, you know, about what you've done because of what you, what you've put out there.

But what that is, is it, it's, a tangible representation of who you are. And so if you have the ability to show up fully, and that can be done in many ways, for me, it's clearly talking. I'm just like, here I am, who needs a book? I'm just going to talk to you forever. But I think being able to put that down and share that with people in, in the written word and have them, you know, come around and share it, like the.

impact that it had on them. Yeah. What a, what a beautiful way to like, what a beautiful. inception of a friendship to be able to have that opportunity to relate in that way. And it shows me that like, similar to what has happened for me with this podcast is like, you just don't know who's going to come into your life when you show up fully and you put yourself out there and it has moments of being terrifying.

And I, similar to you, it's like, well, I mean, who's going to listen to this? Like, does it matter? Like, is, am I just like, Talking into the void, and, but the right people will find you. And I feel like what you just described is a true testament to that. And on like, the personal side of that for me, like this conversation and meeting you and hearing your perspective and learning about your experience, like that's, there's something very reciprocal about it as well.

Like whether you're the person putting the content out there, putting yourself out there fully, like if somebody is there and able to receive it and show up, um, in a way that feels supportive of that, then like the, that's where like those really strong connections, uh, not only form, but also sustain. Yeah, I, I wouldn't, I would not retire that, that effort.

And I, I will continue because I, I would love to have as many friends as I can. And, uh, some people, I mean, I've had a few people tell me that put them in therapy or that it changed their life in some way. Like, uh, one of my very dearest friends, she became so confident in what she's doing and what she's trying to achieve.

And instead of it, it's like, it's like rocked her whole world. She's trying to navigate with her family. It's like, what's going on with you? You know, and yeah, and Shakespeare. Um, Yeah. And people that have, are traditionally accepted with really great jobs, like rocket scientists, have written me to say that my book is their favorite book now.

After the Martian. Well, which is, you know, I think put it in the win column. Yeah. Yeah. It's Shakespeare. Shakespeare. Yeah. And you know, I'm, I'm actually, I haven't, I'm so excited for volume three because it's even, it's a, it's a much more intense character study. Uh, and I wanted to explore, like, people that, cause all the, the many characters I have, um, really finally, uh, you begin to understand them on a level that's, uh, much more intimate, um, and it's, it's a lot, I don't know, it's, there's, there's a, there's a, there's a kind of a line that, that sort of like underlines the whole book, which is, um, there's a woman named Captain Valara, And, um, in the first book, she says, uh, she's talking to these people that have been enslaved, enslaving children.

And she says, uh, she's like, she's, they're going to be executed. She says, uh, uh, your deaths today without incident is a mercy so wholesome. The gods weep at my virtue. But then in the next book, she's, so she's intense and she's in her sixties and she's awesome. Um, uh, but, uh, she, she says, she's telling the kids that have come into the, her military that they, uh, Like what, what is expected of, uh, people who hope to achieve liberty and freedom for others is, uh, When liberty wars, she commands we forsake all our coming dawns.

And each its lamb of hope, so others might enjoy our cherished reparations. Wow. It says, you know, it's about duty and, um, what it's for. Yeah. Wow. Well, I feel like that's a really great way to round out this conversation. What, um, what a powerful statement. And I feel like what a, I'm so glad we ended speaking about your book because I feel, as I said, like the timing is impeccable.

The world is a complicated place and we by no means make it easier for ourselves. We're trying, some of us, but I, I think that, you know, something that is really important for listeners to consider, you know, as you're kind of coming away from this episode is, you know, obviously if Kristofe's book sounds compelling to you, definitely check it out.

It's called The Second Son, volumes one and two. Beyond your book, um, you know, this has just been such an insightful conversation. I felt that way when we first spoke, I feel even more so now. And you said a few things during this conversation that are like really deeply resonating with me in terms of like really showing up for yourself and giving space to that creativity, but in a way that sort of don't put the pressure on yourself, like give yourself the space to experience it and feel it and show up.

And like, look at just. How much growth comes from that and how much potential you offer, um, you know, to the world by, by showing up for yourself. So thank you for doing what you do, Kristof, and for being here with me. Gang, thanks so much for joining me for this week's episode. I just appreciate your support and it means so much to me that you tune in week after week.

The best thing that you can do to help spread the word about the podcast is if this episode resonated with you, go ahead and share it with somebody else wherever you listen to your podcasts, or you can go ahead and subscribe to my YouTube channel and share it from there. I also really appreciate it if you can leave a review on Apple Podcasts, because that really helps me.

Give people a better understanding of what the show's about and what you appreciate about the conversations that we're having.