Career Satisfaction & The Quest for Fulfillment with Anthony Kuo

[00:00:00] Anthony Kuo: What you're complaining about or what's sending you up the wall is really, really rich information about what you need because needs are one of those things like oxygen, like you don't really notice that you have it a need until you don't have it anymore, right? Like you don't, you don't, you don't think about breathing at all until you feel like you can't breathe.

Exactly.

[00:00:29] Nikki La Croce: Hey gang, I'm really excited to share this episode with you with my guest and friend Anthony Kuo. Anthony is a career satisfaction coach, but beyond that, he is just an incredibly insightful human being who has a lot of really beautiful perspectives on finding your own path to your purpose and really creating a space where you feel like you can show up fully.

So if you are someone who has. felt challenged by your career path, felt alone in your journey of dissatisfaction with your career. I promise you, you are not alone. And this conversation is going to show you that. So tune in. And if something really resonates with you, I'd love to see what that is and hear about it in the comments.

And if you feel like somebody else that you know, whether that's a coworker or a friend or family member, if you think that they would benefit from hearing this conversation, please share this episode with them. Every share counts. And the amount of growth that I personally have experienced through the conversations I've had on this show has been tremendous.

And without a doubt, I feel confident that you as a listener will also feel that same. Motivation and transformation as you go on this journey with us. So let's get started. I am really excited to have you here. I am so excited to have you here to finally be hitting record on this conversation. We have had the privilege of meeting a couple of times and I'm so grateful that after the first time that we connected, that you were like, I would be interested in being friends because it was one of those things that I think as adults were a little apprehensive to pursue new relationships with people when there's not, um, I think, especially when you're not in person to kind of be like, let's continue to hang out virtually, whatever that means.

Um, but. We've had some really wonderful conversations just as friends and just professionally about the direction that we're going and what we want to do for ourselves and to help each other and to help other people. So this conversation I feel will embody a lot of both of our journeys and I'm really excited for you to share who you are and where you are in this conversation, Anthony.

So welcome to the show and I can't wait to just dive into more. of Anthony Kuo.

[00:02:48] Anthony Kuo: I mean, I love that. I really love, um, how you started off and it was such a fun little moment too, right? Cause I, I know that I was sitting on my side and I was like, I felt that feeling bubbling up inside of me. And I was like, if I don't say something, I'm going to kick myself. I

[00:03:06] Nikki La Croce: love that though. That's, that's like the best feeling in the world to both have it and then to be on the receiving end of it.

And it's like, When there's sort of that instant feeling of connection and understanding and friendship that can bud from that, I feel like you've got to trust that instinct and ride that wave and see where it can go.

[00:03:25] Anthony Kuo: Yeah, lots of really wonderful things to come.

[00:03:29] Nikki La Croce: What I'm really excited about sharing with people is the intersection of what you're doing in terms of your business, but also how you got there and what your motivation to help other people is as a career satisfaction coach.

Um, when I was preparing for this episode and I was thinking about it more, I was like, you know, we often hear the phrase, you're not alone. And it doesn't really quite quell the sense of loneliness because there's just. It's such an isolating feeling. So one of the things that you mentioned recently was how you want to be able to rethink what you're doing in a way that helps people not only recognize that they're not alone, but not feel so alone in this journey of dissatisfaction with your career or, um, sort of, career isolation, if you will, when you decide you're going to depart the thing that everybody else is doing and go do your own thing.

So can you share a little bit about how, what you're building, um, not just in terms of your business, but in terms of your desire to help people, how that originated for you?

[00:04:40] Anthony Kuo: I'm going to start off with a, a really depressing statistic, which is that, uh, 44 percent of people as of last year, Say that they are highly stressed and unhappy at work.

[00:04:54] Nikki La Croce: Cool.

[00:04:55] Anthony Kuo: Right, cool. This was in the 2023 Gallup job report and there was another really really depressing statistic in this report that was presented as good news, and I was like, oh my god. It said that A record high of 28 percent of employees said that they were engaged with their work. And I was like, how is that?

How is that good news?

[00:05:25] Nikki La Croce: That's in any other polling, that would be abysmal.

[00:05:28] Anthony Kuo: It was like touted as this accomplishment of management science. And I was like, this is, this is not good guys. This is not saying The wonderful thing that you think it is. Right, right.

[00:05:40] Nikki La Croce: People understand, you know, at a very basic level, 28 percent of the pie is not enough pie.

[00:05:46] Anthony Kuo: Right, right, exactly. Um, and I'm from New York. I understand pie math, right? Um, so I start off with that because the numbers don't lie, right? Career dissatisfaction is a really, really common thing. It's all over the place. If you go to work, if you go to any office and, you know, look at the person standing next to you, as you're riding the elevator, there's a really, really good chance that person is not happy with what they're doing or where they're going.

And I found it really, really hard to square that with two things. One was my own experience going through that. And second is seeing it played out in all of my clients when they first started working with them. Um, so my experience, I was As you know, Nikki, working in corporate for like eight years climbing the ladder and on the surface, I was very successful, right?

Um, but on the inside, I felt really alone and it felt, it felt confusing because I was so unhappy, but I had a really hard time reconciling that with the fact that like I was actually doing very well. So it was like, what am I supposed to do with this information? There's so much cognitive dissonance there.

[00:07:17] Nikki La Croce: So can I ask a question there? I graduated in 2008, so a lot of my career growth, as it, I had to force it. I had to be like, I'm, If I want to make more money than I need to switch jobs. And that was sort of the way I climbed the ladder was to bounce around every two years. And I got to the point where, you know, I started out, I was making like an offensively low amount of money with gas being 5 a gallon and commuting a hundred miles round trip to work.

It was just like absurd to me. So I was losing money going to work. And so as I was gaining more financial stability in the roles that I was taking, I was convincing myself. that that was validation for what I was capable of. And then when I made the choice to step away from my corporate career and try to pursue something for myself, it's sort of sent me into this spiral of like, well, where's my value then if I'm not making all of that money doing this?

Do you feel like when you look at what you saw as your success, it was like, well, I have all the, you know, status and material benefit that I could want, there is a point of diminishing returns. Maybe, maybe we could have had more or wanted more, whatever. But like, do you feel like there was this point where you recognized no amount of any of that is going to change what I feel right now?

And that was when you started to feel that really intense disconnect?

[00:08:46] Anthony Kuo: Oh, absolutely. Um, and you, and you totally nailed it. I mean, my version of that experience was like paying the 15 toll to cross the George Washington Bridge. I mean, multiply that times the number of working days of the week plus, you know, gas money plus insurance.

And I was like, this, this is ridiculous. Um, but yeah, there, there absolutely was a point where, you know, I was, linearly tracking with how much money I was making and how much money was in my bank account. Um, And there was a moment where, you know, at first I wasn't quite making up no money. And, and then I crossed that like threshold where, um, the study stay, it's about 80, 80, 000 per year is where like the, the last dollar that incrementally changes your happiness and after that it's just sort of like gravy.

Um,

I reached a point where I got a promotion and I got a really big raise and I got to my first day. in the new role. And I was like, this is the same old shit.

[00:10:05] Nikki La Croce: Yep. Yeah. You're forced to look at what the real difference is. And so if you've achieved this thing that you were seeking to achieve, and then you're like, okay, now what?

[00:10:19] Anthony Kuo: You know, I tell my, I tell my clients that your job takes up so much of your life. Right? Our careers are like the best hours of our day. It's prime real estate. You probably spend more time with your colleagues and your coworkers than with your own family.

[00:10:36] Nikki La Croce: Oh yeah. I've said that before too. And it's like, so you better like it.

[00:10:40] Anthony Kuo: Yeah. Or else what's it for? Right. And I mean, Don't get me wrong there. There's definitely a practical means to an end. Mm-Hmm. thing that if it serves your life, then go for it. Right. Um, and I, I see that a lot with people who are like, well, I, I have a mortgage and I gotta keep my kids in private school and all of that.

Then, you know, that's, that's a, that's a choice they're making. Right. I, I'm gonna take the hit in my personal. You know, happiness at work so that my kids can have a stable home and a great education and all of that. Um, but the difference I think in that situation is that it's a choice as opposed to just like defaulting into it, which is what I was doing.

And, and you know, what it sounds like you were doing too, just from the conditioning that we have in, you know, this. capitalistic society of like, the more money you make and the more money you have, the better you are.

[00:11:38] Nikki La Croce: Right. Well, I love that you made that point too, Anthony. Do you feel like that was something because you speak to the conditioning part of it?

Like my perspective was you go to college, you get a job, you're good, right? Well, when the economy crashes, as somebody's handing you your diploma, your perspective changes a little bit because everything that you were told would help make you successful kind of became moot. Do you feel like growing up you had it in your head as well that, you know, this is the path that you follow, these are the steps that you take, and then success is determined by how well you follow that?

[00:12:17] Anthony Kuo: 100%. I mean, I grew up in an immigrant family. My parents, uh, came to the country and, you know, my dad has the stereotypical story of like, I came into, uh, the country with my suitcase full of my clothes and 20 in my wallet and enough English to say my name. Um, and. He and my mom, uh, they met here in the States, but they, they worked their asses off to create a stable upper middle class existence for my brother and I to grow up in.

Um, and so they took care of a lot of the like heavy lifting for me in terms of like stabilizing. Um, I was a little bit luckier than you in terms of timing entering the job market. You know, I, I entered at 2010.

[00:13:08] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, it was like, There was a pinnacle of like, everything's happening right now. And the surge of that moment was there was no job to be had.

So there was also a scarcity mindset around it.

[00:13:20] Speaker 4: It was like, I will take

[00:13:21] Nikki La Croce: any job you will give me. I don't care what it pays. I need healthcare, which is also so uniquely American. Right. And so, and so there was this additional pressure and this additional factor of speaking to your point around a means to an end.

That was the exact phrase that came into my head because I knew that. on what I was making, I couldn't afford to get sick. I couldn't afford to have health issues. So I therefore needed to have a full time job regardless of what it paid. So I could know that if anything happened, I would be okay. So like I, without having children and without having the mortgage at the time was still keenly aware of this has to happen or I could end up in worse shape.

[00:14:02] Anthony Kuo: Are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Yes,

[00:14:05] Nikki La Croce: I am.

[00:14:06] Anthony Kuo: Yeah. Yeah. So like the, the lower tier is survival, right? Right. Um, and so that's what you're describing in terms of, I can't afford to get sick. I need to survive. I need to be able to pay rent. Yep. In my parents case, it was like, we need to survive.

We need to, you know, not just make money, we need to learn English, we need to complete our degrees here. We need to do all this stuff just to feel safe.

[00:14:36] Nikki La Croce: Now were they, were they going through that process while they had you and your brother or did they, um, like how old were they? Did they have their education and things like that sorted out before they had children?

They

[00:14:47] Anthony Kuo: came here first. They came here for college, so I wasn't in the picture yet. I, I, I came along a few years later. Mm hmm. Um, but they were still in the process of like, Assimilating and figuring it out. Exactly. Exactly. Um, right. So at that, at that tier is survival. You're not really thinking about your like self actualization, your pleasure, and your fulfillment.

You're like literally Am I going to be alive tomorrow? Totally. Totally. Um, and, and, you know, like there's, I think the first two, the first one is like just straight up physical safety. And then the next one is like psychological safety. That's kind of what we're talking about. Like your, your, your job there is just like purely functional.

[00:15:34] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:15:35] Anthony Kuo: And then I grew up, you know, where, where there was this transition happening, right. Where I grew up in an environment where stability was. really valued. And, um, and in my family's view, prestige was a path to stability, right? If you can get a prestigious six figure corporate job that pays every two weeks, You've made it in life.

[00:16:06] Speaker 3: And that's it. That's the secret to success.

[00:16:09] Anthony Kuo: Yeah, there you go. Exactly. Who needs, who needs to, uh, um, you know, who, who needs,

[00:16:16] Nikki La Croce: uh, the self

[00:16:17] Anthony Kuo: help books after

[00:16:18] Nikki La Croce: that? Right. Well, and it's an interesting word that you choose, prestige, because I think that that's something that is very much present in the way a lot of people have been raised.

Um, I see it shifting now because of people like yourself and what you're doing, and then this heightened awareness of self actualization and the importance of it. But for our parents generation, and certainly their parents generation, talk about being in survival mode. I mean, this is sort of, um, It's interesting to be in the time that we're in with the awareness that we have at our ages and in what we've experienced in our careers to be able to zoom out and sort of be like, well, I get that that's the way that it was always done and that that served its purpose in the time in which it was relevant.

But what we're having is a discussion around how that's not relevant anymore. It's not that people don't want or need the security. We absolutely do. In fact, arguably more than ever, given just the state of the world these days. But there are also so many more creative, unique ways that you can show up in a career for yourself.

And you don't have to purely be entrepreneurial to do that. You can find businesses that align with you more and give you a sense of space for the autonomy and the creativity or whatever else it might be that you need to feel fulfilled in your career. Whereas I think about my dad's retiring in May.

And he's been at the same company probably for almost 30 years now. And that was after he had been through a handful of other places before that. But there's this sense of also the longer you stay, the more you're committed to it, the more, you know, sort of, um, credibility you have in your career. And that just hasn't been the case.

I mean, honestly, pretty much since I, I started my career.

[00:18:08] Anthony Kuo: Um, times are different. Um, And the, the employment culture is different on both the employer side as well as the employee side. Um, the, the cycle is moving faster where, you know, people don't really expect you to stay for 30 years anymore. No.

[00:18:30] Nikki La Croce: No.

[00:18:30] Anthony Kuo: Right. And, and more to the point, uh, people, and at the beginning of the careers, you, you say to them, Hey, you want to stay here for, for the next 30 years and have your entire like professional life here. They'll look at you like you have 13 heads.

[00:18:45] Nikki La Croce: Right. Right. I guess I, I feel like, do you, Do you think that that's something that feels stifling to people in the work that you've been doing?

Do you recognize that as sort of, it almost feels a little bit like they're trapped if they were to commit to something for that length of time?

[00:19:05] Anthony Kuo: I know that it can feel really paralyzing to To play things out and like, kind of future cast them many, many years out, like that question, where do you see yourself in 5 to 10 years?

I like freaks people out. Um, and it doesn't really. I don't think it really serves to imagine that far out. I mean, it's, it's nice to have certain ideas and like long term goals, but you know, even five years, which sounds like not that long a time is a really long time. And you don't know who you're going to be in five years.

You don't know how, what's going to happen around you or to you or because of you, like you're, I am a very different person today. than I was five years ago. I'm doing things that I couldn't even imagine was possible for, to be my reality five years ago. And if I had charted my life path out and been doggedly stuck to it, I would probably be in a very different place than I am now where, where I just, I feel a lot more myself and a

[00:20:23] Nikki La Croce: lot more expressed through my work.

That's really beautiful. And do you feel that there's a sense of freedom in that also? Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's interesting to think about the way you use the phrase future cast. I like that a lot. Um, I always hated that question about where are you going to be in five years, 10 years, whatever, because I agree with you.

There's so much that we don't know. Yeah. I think you phrased all of that really beautifully and encapsulated what we struggle with a lot in attempting to foresee the answer to that question. Is that something that when you're, as you've been on your own journey, you've come to the realization that that's an uncomfortable question to have to sit with, um, through just your own journey, or is it something that you've also experienced sort of by witnessing other people's journeys as well?

Because I, I know that it, the being put on the spot and being asked like, well, what's, what's your plan for five years from now is like a very daunting question anyway. Um, because of all the unknowns that you mentioned, but is that something that you've always sort of viscerally felt or is that something that's sort of expanded based on what you've, um, come to do with your career?

[00:21:40] Anthony Kuo: Probably the most viscerally I've ever felt that was when I realized that I didn't want to be in my career anymore. in the corporate world. And I, and it was paired with not quite knowing what I would do instead.

[00:21:58] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. That's a hard one.

[00:22:01] Anthony Kuo: Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was really, really terrifying because I felt trapped.

I, it was there on the one hand, there was the devil I knew. And on the other hand was this great unknown. Whereas anything wonderful could happen, but also anything awful could happen at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. And more to the point, like I knew that freeing up my time, freeing up my, like, Emotional and mental resources by itself wasn't going to solve my

[00:22:38] Speaker 3: problem.

[00:22:39] Anthony Kuo: It was only going to magnify what was already there. Ooh. And at the time I was Like my, my job was pretty much my entire life. It was What I did for the vast majority of my day. And then also almost all of my friends were from work. Um, and it was really terrifying to like stare into the void and be like, there's nothing.

here. I, like, I, I don't have a life outside of work. So to give that up feels like too much.

[00:23:20] Nikki La Croce: That's a really intense feeling to have. And you touch on something that I think is like a really, um, compelling crossover point in terms of like what I'm trying to do with this podcast and what you're doing, um, in your life period, but like with, with the work that you're doing to help other people as well, which is that like, It's really challenging to sometimes separate your work from yourself, but also to be able to define who you are and really embrace the relationships that you want to have in your life.

Cultivate those relationships, decide you're going to put yourself out there to create those relationships. And when you mentioned, you know, a lot of your friends being work friends, So many of us, I have incredible friends that I've met through work who are best friends, chosen family, like can't imagine my life without them.

There are also the friends that you have at work that are the people that you commiserate with. And while that is extremely helpful in the moment when you're burdened by the stress of a job you don't like. It's not really the foundation of a long term relationship. And I feel like there is an opportunity when you're establishing sort of, where do I want to go with my life in terms of my career, as you're pointing out, like to separate that from, you know, You might have some overlap in the social aspect of it, but give yourself space to be like, what is the thing that I want to do with my life and who are the people that I want to spend my time with?

And if those things intersect, beautiful, but if they don't, that's okay too. I think to some extent you want there to be overlap, but it doesn't, your entire life being your work or your entire life being all of the people in your life, but not something that gives you purpose or fulfillment. It's like swinging the pendulum to one side of the spectrum.

Um, too much is going to leave you feeling unbalanced and sort of disoriented.

[00:25:11] Anthony Kuo: Yeah, totally. And I think you're, you're speaking here to something broader than just what do I want to do with my life? And who do I want to be around me? Um, I think there's something very important here about making decisions for yourself in the first place, which is not something that Um, as, as adults, and especially as young adults, that's not really a muscle we have a ton of opportunities to, to build and work on, um, you know, because I had the experience as I was like in this pivotal moment, um, I had the experience of feeling very out of my depth where I'd gone for many, many years of school, where it's like somebody told telling me what to do,

[00:26:01] Nikki La Croce: right?

[00:26:02] Anthony Kuo: If you want to get the good job, if you want the good grade, here's how to do it. And I went from there to being in a job, where I had a boss telling me what to do. And I also had friends that were, in my case, very largely dictated by proximity. My friends were, Hey, look, you're in the same class together.

Hey, look, you're in the same dorm hall together. Hey, look, you're in the same job together. And it was as much friends of shared experiences, but also friends of convenience and proximity. And it wasn't really an act of choice I was making.

[00:26:40] Nikki La Croce: I love that you just said that because friends of convenience is something that I've referenced a lot as I've gone through this journey myself.

And I think part of the reason people struggle with building relationships. We are so used to being funneled into forced social situations that create this idea that those people are the people that you need to spend time with. And something that one of my best friends has said over the years, and then another guest I'd had recently also made this comment was, some people are there for a reason, a season or a lifetime, and you have to be comfortable making the choice as you started this, um, comment with that is best.

for you. And while it might be uncomfortable to release some of those relationships the same way it can be uncomfortable to release a job, if you feel it in your soul that it is not right for you, people, places, or things, it doesn't matter. You have to be really honest with yourself about what that means.

And I think what you're touching on here, and I'll segue back so you can finish your body or is just that like, giving yourself the opportunity to take action on that feeling instead of just ruminating on it and sitting in it and thinking about what the possibilities are and instead realizing your potential in that and what could come.

[00:28:11] Anthony Kuo: You're reminding me of, um, a video I made, uh, a couple of years ago that I'm probably gonna re shoot or just repost the old link. Um, It was titled, Is Your Gratitude Journal Keeping You Stuck?

[00:28:29] Speaker 3: Mmm.

[00:28:30] Anthony Kuo: Because, and this was, this was when like, I was super into my gratitude journal. Um, and I had a very interesting experience of feeling better, but things slowing down.

Interesting. Okay, can you tell me more about that? You know, something would bother me. at work. And, and then I would come home and it'd be kind of pissed off about it. And I'd vent to someone about it. And then I go into my gratitude journal and as my nighttime routine and be like, I'm grateful for these three things.

I'm grateful that I am healthy. I'm grateful that I have a job at all. I'm grateful that, um, I am, you know, securely and safely housed. Um, and you know what? It worked. I felt better. I felt grateful. It was a really wonderful thing and it had the effect of taking me out of that like complaint. Yeah. But then I didn't do anything about it because I was, the attitude adjustment worked.

[00:29:34] Nikki La Croce: That's really, that's. fascinating to think about it that way, because I'm a big fan of finding the gratitude in the small moments. But it's also, as you're saying it, sort of the, the consideration that you had was, is this also sort of keeping me in a place where I've made myself comfortable with what I have so I'm not pursuing something that has deeper meaning to me.

[00:30:06] Anthony Kuo: So one of my mottos now is that you are allowed to be hungry and grateful at the same time.

[00:30:12] Nikki La Croce: I love that. Yeah. Well, because I think you need the motivation still, right? Like being grateful for what you have and showing appreciation for what you have doesn't mean that you don't also want. more or different for yourself.

And it's okay to hold space for both of those things at the same time. That's such a really beautiful perspective on that. I love that you shared that.

[00:30:37] Anthony Kuo: Yeah. I also think it's important to be grateful for your dissatisfaction and things that you're uncomfortable or unhappy with and not just sort of like sweep it under the rug because that dissatisfaction is a source of really rich information too.

[00:30:54] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:30:55] Anthony Kuo: And when you can claim it and own it and Just own your experience. Then you start to have agency. over it, and you can decide what you want to do about it.

[00:31:06] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, absolutely. So is that something that when somebody is coming to see you as a client that you feel is important to sort of create dialogue around at the onset?

Because I feel like leading with that is probably a really good gateway to finding the the path forward.

[00:31:26] Anthony Kuo: Yeah, yeah. Usually the first session or the first couple of sessions, I let my clients complain, and for them it feels cathartic. Right, right. And then meanwhile, I'm taking down very careful notes of what I'm hearing because, as I said, What you're complaining about or what's sending you up the wall is really, really rich information about what you need.

Because needs are one of those things like oxygen. Like you don't really notice that you have it, a need, until you don't have it anymore.

[00:32:00] Nikki La Croce: Wow. Yeah, great analogy. You don't, you don't,

[00:32:03] Anthony Kuo: you don't think about breathing at all until

[00:32:05] Nikki La Croce: you

[00:32:05] Anthony Kuo: feel

[00:32:06] Nikki La Croce: like you can't breathe.

[00:32:07] Anthony Kuo: Exactly. Exactly. And all of a sudden it's an issue, right?

Um, so complaints are kind of like that, or when you feel like you're, you're, you can't take it anymore. You're two seconds away from rage quitting and blowing up everything. Yeah. Okay, cool. So, so I'm like, okay, tell me more, please. Okay. And he said, what? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that

[00:32:27] Nikki La Croce: made you feel what now?

Right. Well, there's like a very, uh, unique crossover to what you're doing in terms of trying to get people to share that part of their lives related to their job and the really sort of therapeutic aspect to that. And as it stands for me, it's super relatable because when I started going to therapy, really committing to it, I'd gone previously, but it was not much.

And it was sort of on my own terms, which was not the right way to do it. I need to like really commit to it as you do with most things. When I started, it was because I was really miserable with my job. And I think that when people feel safe to bitch about their jobs, they feel safe to bitch about their jobs because so many people are unsatisfied.

Clearly the poll numbers show people are ecstatic about their work lives. Um, and so I feel like. it's an interesting way to witness people being really vulnerable without them feeling like they're being super vulnerable. Do you agree with that?

[00:33:29] Anthony Kuo: Yeah, 100%. And this, this kind of gets to what we were talking at the beginning about like feeling alone versus not.

Um, you know, despite the prevalence of career unhappiness, it's not something we're really allowed to talk about openly. Um, especially when you're going through it, right? Like it's not like you go on LinkedIn. And post an update that says, I really hate my job and I, you know, when, when so and so does this and micromanages my project and tells me what to put on PowerPoint slide 53.

You know, it just makes me want to punch someone.

[00:34:10] Nikki La Croce: Can you imagine though? Can you imagine?

[00:34:14] Anthony Kuo: And then tag them, you know, like hashtag micromanager hashtag. So so the range of emotion that's available on LinkedIn, like the bottom of it is basically like when somebody gets laid off and and is like. I am sad to announce that I've been laid off from such and such a company after 15 years of service.

And while I'm really sad about it, I'm also grateful that I've had the opportunity to work with all of these magnificent people and Right? Like, you just need to keep a happy face. You can't Like, I'm sure it's true, right? Like We can, we can leave gracefully. We can give shout outs to the people who have helped us.

And also there's just something that's like, not real about it. Yeah. Um, right. Like where, where do we talk about the. the like gut punch that it is to have your livelihood stripped away at some faceless HR all hands meeting. Yeah. And where do we talk about the feeling of being completely invalidated and unvalued?

When you're so easily dismissed after so many years of dedication. Yeah. Um, without, you know, having a bad look or having a bad attitude and spreading negatively. There isn't really a forum where we can do that without the risk of damaging our reputations or, you know, some sort of, um, Some sort of professional risk.

Yeah. So it's not really, yeah, exactly. It's not really safe to talk about this, you know, except whispered among close family and close friends and your therapist.

[00:36:05] Nikki La Croce: You raise an interesting point too, because it's like, I'm trying to think about other things that are sort of like this. Um, it's sort of the way, like, you don't want to bring too much of your personal relationships into your professional setting.

And it's not that you don't, like when you have friends and things like that, like your relationships, you share things with people, it does intersect, right? But like, we, we temper the amount that we express ourselves in an environment based on the perception of other people. And Like what an interesting experiment it would be to witness people being really freaking honest about it and being like, you know what, I'm leaving this company.

I will. Here's what mine would have said. Okay. Let's like, if I think about when I've left most of the companies that I've left, it probably would have been very similar. My update would have read something like, I'm really grateful for the relationships that I've created here for the people that I've met and the opportunities that I've had.

But this is no longer a healthy place for me to work. I'm distracted. I'm unhappy. I feel like I've lost my autonomy if I even ever had it at all. And I'm no longer interested in having my life and responsibilities dictated to me by someone who hasn't earned their role in the company. And it's like, you can't say that.

You can't show up and be that person, right? And that's not to discredit all the really amazing bosses that I've had. But I think there's so much that goes into like the why we left and. what's really happening, like you said, behind the curtain that leads to that decision. And I, I feel like this is something that I just like, I'm going to sit here and I'm going to chew on for a while, even after this conversation's over, because it's like, why do we accept that?

Why do we accept that? It's okay to kind of bullshit ourselves and everybody else around us. Because, like, we don't want to ruffle feathers. It's because we've been told that you can't do that, it will make you look bad. And you don't want to burn bridges, right? Even if you hated your boss, even if your boss was a narcissist and totally disrespected you.

Even if, even if, even if, it doesn't matter. Shut your mouth, be grateful for the opportunity that you had, and just move on quietly. And in reality, you're moving on, but it's not quiet. It's just quiet at the forefront of where any other potential employer or employee might witness it.

[00:38:47] Anthony Kuo: Meanwhile, it's blaring on the inside, right?

[00:38:50] Nikki La Croce: Right. Yeah, yeah, like what an absolute, just like speaking about, you know, being in integrity with who you are and trying to be honest and, and open about things. There's a balance of, you know, decorum that's expected. And I understand. the desire for professionals. I'm not trying to be like, everybody should just always say everything that they're thinking.

Fuck all. It doesn't matter. Like, it's okay. I think that we need to be respectful in the process, but why can we not both be respectful and honest about the experience? Because the other thing that this makes me think is part of the reason that ineffective leaders make it to the top of the ranks is because nobody's saying.

the real thing. And so then the people who have the potential and the desire and want to be able to rise in their career are being stifled by people who have no, like, no desire to help them grow, no willingness to move them forward.

[00:39:52] Anthony Kuo: Yeah, and I mean, of course, what happens in a lot of cases when somebody does speak up and says the real thing is they get fired, or they get silenced, or they get

[00:40:01] Nikki La Croce: reorganized.

They move you over here where you can be quiet about it.

[00:40:06] Anthony Kuo: Or, or they'll, they'll, uh, you know, quietly start doing the thing where they're like, Oh, okay, well, we'll put you on a performance improvement plan, and we'll just wait for you to quit on your own. So we don't even have to pay the unemployment.

[00:40:18] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, that's the other thing is like, it's, it's really sort of all in the favor of maintaining the perception of the business or protecting the reputation of a business or individuals in a business, rather than like really being intentional about what would make people successful here, because what would make them successful would also make us successful.

And you know, When we come around to the point that you were making about people kind of coming in and saying their piece and letting them complain about what they're experiencing, what does it look like for them to like, pull away from that feeling of, I'm just satisfied. This is not how I want to live my life into, okay, I see my potential and I understand like what I need to do to be able to move into that time in my life.

[00:41:12] Anthony Kuo: It can be really, really powerful to actually embrace that voice. Um, As we're talking, I, I have this image of like the, um, the cop in South Park that's like, move along folks. Nothing to see here. Right. Um, and it's so validating to finally be able to, to say like, look at what's happening. This is happening to me, and I feel this way, and to have it actually be received, and registered by someone.

Um, and, you know, where this gets a little bit tricky is, what do you do from there? Right? Because that, Speaking of gratitude journals, there's a reason why they exist, right? Yeah. Um, it's, it's, it's a slippery slope to complain and then just get caught in this like, doom loop of like, I'm such a victim.

Everything is terrible. Why is this all happening to me? Um, and so the thing that makes the complaint sesh really worthwhile is the interpretation that comes afterwards, right? Like, Oh, this, this made you feel awful. Let's have a good understanding of why. Is it that you're so bored that you're, you know, you're being given the same project over and over again, and it's not what you asked for.

And so your interests aren't being met. Okay. Um, or same situation potentially, and maybe the same project over and over again, just makes you feel like a square peg in a round hole.

[00:43:01] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:43:02] Anthony Kuo: Or as one of my clients put it, uh, you feel like a, uh, uh, a fish trying to climb a tree. Yeah.

[00:43:09] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Do you remember what it was like for you?

Like what your feeling was?

[00:43:14] Anthony Kuo: Yeah. My feeling was I just felt cramped all the time. I, I felt like I, I just resented the hell out of having somebody tell me what to do. Yeah. No surprise that I ended up going into business for myself because that, that I think is a trait that many entrepreneurs share. Yeah.

And I tried to change a whole bunch of variables to kind of get around this. Like maybe if I'm more in charge, maybe if I get the promotion and I become a team leader, then I'll Um, and so I did put in a lot of good faith efforts to try and make myself feel better and make it work in the environment that I was in.

Um, but ultimately I realized that no job was going to make it better for me, no matter how great the boss was, no matter how, how much of an entrepreneur and a leader I could be. If I was reporting to somebody else, somebody else is going to sign off on my. Vacation time if someone else was going to set the objectives for me and tell me how to reach them I wasn't going to be happy.

[00:44:26] Nikki La Croce: Do you think that's something you knew from the beginning in some way? Because I feel like I did, but to the point earlier in the conversation, I was trying to make ends meet. And so I was like, this is the sacrifice I make to get things moving in the right direction for me. But I would say it all the time to people that I was like, I just need to work for myself.

I just need to work for myself. I can't keep doing this. And it's not, I don't have an issue with authority in the way where I'm like totally defiant and rebellious. And I can't listen. Like, in fact, the reason I got where I did is because I would just do what I needed to do to get by. But it was like, I was stifling all these parts of myself and squelching like my creativity in the interest of somebody else's business that I didn't care about enough.

And they certainly didn't exhibit that they cared about me in any way other than potentially financially, and sometimes not even that in my early years, you know? So it's like, what's my incentive to give everything I have to you when it doesn't really matter if I'm here or not for, from the perspective of the business.

[00:45:27] Anthony Kuo: I totally felt that from the beginning. I knew from day one of, you know, W2 employee. Um, that I wanted to eventually go into business for myself and I actually had quite a few side hustles, just like in, in the, in the wings that I would come home and, or even sometimes during work, I'd just be like on my computer.

feeding those little projects. And, you know, they, they were like beer money projects. They weren't really like life changing or anything. It was just to like scratch that itch in myself. Like there's something that I own. Um, and I knew that about myself, but I didn't know what I wanted to actually dedicate myself to.

And there was, To be very fair to the, to the, you know, corporate employment world, I learned a lot. I was learning a ton. I learned about business. I learned about best practices. I learned what not to do. I learned a lot about marketing. Big, big, big

[00:46:27] Nikki La Croce: learned what not to do.

[00:46:28] Anthony Kuo: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I was in an excellent position to learn through observation and direct experience.

So that kept me going for a while. And of course, after, you know, a few years of this, the learning curve started to flatten out and plateau. And that's when the antsy ness really started to,

[00:46:48] Nikki La Croce: That's an interesting point that you make too around like the learning curve plateauing, because I think that when you're in an environment where you're like, I can keep doing the thing that I'm doing and there might be these incremental improvements in terms of, you know, the pay raise or the promotion or responsibilities or whatever, but it's like, the work is ultimately still the same work and I don't want to be doing this work.

Like this is not the thing that I care about doing. So even if you have all the perks and you can point to them and be like, this, this, this, and this are all good. It's like, but the thing that I feel on the inside about what I'm actually doing here isn't satisfying to me. I'm good at it. I'm capable and it's fine.

And I feel like the worst place to exist sometimes is. It's fine.

[00:47:31] Anthony Kuo: Yeah, I, I fully agree. And that was when I, when I speak to somebody for the first time, if they're interested in working with me or joining my group, I kind of do an internal assessment of like degree of difficulty. Um, you know, it's like, uh, when you, when you see the, like, diving competitions and the Olympics, you know, there's always like the modifier at the end.

Like, how much do we multiply the score by to, yeah, it's based on how, based on how hard the tricks are. Right.

[00:48:02] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:48:03] Anthony Kuo: Um, I always do that for myself just to give myself an understanding of how much bandwidth is this going to take? How can I also set realistic expectations for this person? Um, and sometimes, you know, it's really low, like.

I'm unhappy with the culture. I like what I do. Cool. Lateral shift. No big deal. Um, sometimes the degree of difficulty comes from like the magnitude of change someone is looking for. Um, so like I want to change industries. Uh, depending on, you know, how easy or how big of a change that is, that can get quite tricky.

[00:48:45] Nikki La Croce: Like are skill sets transferable or not? Like are you basically saying I'm an engineer and I want to become a, um, a chef, right? Like, you know, there's like a much different, uh, change

[00:48:55] Anthony Kuo: of pace

[00:48:56] Nikki La Croce: there.

[00:48:56] Anthony Kuo: Something's transfer, but you still have to go to culinary school. Yeah, yeah, totally.

[00:49:01] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:49:03] Anthony Kuo: Um, so. But I always assign the highest degree of difficulty and like heavily weight it for the people who are fine, the people who don't really have a ton of incentive, because things are good right now.

They could leave, but they don't have to.

[00:49:22] Nikki La Croce: And if they're not ready to, then like how, how much can you really help them? Is that sort of the perspective?

[00:49:29] Anthony Kuo: It's not even how much can I help them, but how much, um, how much inertia will we have to overcome? Hmm. Uh, one of my old bosses used to say that we are moved by either inspiration or desperation.

[00:49:44] Nikki La Croce: Wow. That's factual.

[00:49:46] Anthony Kuo: She had a real penchant for these, uh, turns of phrases and of course ended up giving a TED talk. Yeah. That phrase, that, that stuck with me. We are either moved by inspiration or desperation. And the people who are absolutely miserable and burning out and just need to get out now, those are actually the very easiest people to work with.

[00:50:09] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:50:09] Anthony Kuo: Because they are strongly incentivized to get the fuck out.

[00:50:15] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, totally. To your point, it's like you're either on the precipice of rage quitting, or you are like, my exit strategy is actively moving.

[00:50:27] Anthony Kuo: And then there are the people who are on the other side of the spectrum, where it's like, they could stay if they needed to. They could even stay for a few years. And it might even be better to stay for a few years and like bank that promotion and, you know, bank that like new floor and take that to wherever they go.

Exactly. Oh my goodness. The vesting schedule. That's where, that's where it becomes really important to lean into the inspiration

[00:50:59] Speaker 3: of like

[00:51:00] Anthony Kuo: painting the picture of what would you like? Um, and Those are the people who, and I was one of these people, right? I had a good job and, and that good job lasted me for quite a long time, even though I was slowly becoming more and more unhappy, um, but because of how good my job was, that raised the bar for me in terms of, you know, the business that I would leave for.

[00:51:28] Nikki La Croce: Interesting. Yeah. Because

[00:51:29] Anthony Kuo: if I, if it, because if it was just a money making exercise, I had that down already. If I was going to bust my ass, why would I do it without health insurance? Right. Totally. Totally. So there had to be something more than that for me. There had to be a purpose. There had to be alignment.

There had to be an improvement in my ability to take care of my heart, to take care of my soul.

[00:51:54] Nikki La Croce: That's a really beautiful way of putting it. So what would you say, I feel like one of the things that I really want people to be able to think about coming out of these episodes now is some of the lessons learned by guests such as yourself.

Obviously, your own experience has shifted you into this career where you're helping other people try to find that, not even just satisfaction, but as we've discussed before, fulfillment and, and that, you know, really that surge of energy and that desire to really do the thing that you're doing. If you, whether it's as a coach, because this is where you're at, um, in your life or just as Anthony who went through it.

Do you have advice for that person who is fine right now? The

[00:52:49] Anthony Kuo: advice I would give to my lost 25 year old self, and that's by the way, Who I dedicate this all to is my lost 25 year old self

is to believe in who I am or to believe in who you are as a person. That nagging sense of disquiet is trying to say something very very valuable. to you. If only you'll listen. And what it's trying to say is that some very important part of your personality is not getting to be expressed where, where you are in doing what you're doing.

I define career satisfaction as when you're in an environment doing something that aligns with who you are as a person and you don't have to twist yourself into a knot just to make it work, right? Because there's nothing more, there's literally nothing more tiring and exhausting than trying to pretend to be something that you're not.

[00:54:00] Speaker 3: Yes. A hundred

[00:54:02] Anthony Kuo: percent. Right? Yeah. It's the worst. So, so, so, you know, the advice I would give is pay attention to that. Like, where do you feel like you're twisting yourself into a knot? And wherever you feel that, that's where to pay attention. That's where to zero in and say,

[00:54:19] Speaker 4: Hmm,

[00:54:19] Anthony Kuo: I wonder what I would need, what would need to change in order to feel more like myself when I go to work.

[00:54:28] Nikki La Croce: Yeah, that really resonates a lot, Anthony. And I feel like it's so relatable for so many people, we just, um, I think of an unfortunate function of like what people experience is that they have kind of mentally committed to what they're doing, who they are, who they're with. Like, I know I've done it in relationships.

I've done it in career. Um, moves that I've made and we just start chipping away at what you're describing, that part of you that makes you, you, because there's this seed of self doubt that starts to grow because the more you abandon yourself in the process of trying to be what somebody else needs you to be, wants you to be, expects you to be, you are her.

dismissing all of that knowing and you're catering to the belief that what you've been told is how you have to live your life instead of the what you are telling yourself is how you should live your life.

[00:55:29] Anthony Kuo: 100%. Oh, I feel like I'm, I'm speaking to somebody who just inherently understands my language, which is why I.

When to bring it full circle.

[00:55:44] Speaker 3: Yes, please do.

[00:55:45] Anthony Kuo: When, when we first met and we started talking, I was like, I am with my people.

[00:55:51] Speaker 4: Yeah.

[00:55:51] Anthony Kuo: And that's why, that's why I was like, we

[00:55:53] Nikki La Croce: have to be friends. Well, and I think approaching it that way too, where it's like, I recognize this in you. Right. And to be able to share these conversations and be really honest about it, it's like, There, you don't need to have the filter when you are with your people, when you have the safety and something that actually is, I think, really important to share with you too, when I think about the origin of, of this relationship going from, Hey, I might want to be a guest on your podcast.

You're being like, let's have a call. Sure. Great. And becoming friends in such a very rapid amount of time virtually is that. You made a comment to me when we got on the call to talk about just sort of our businesses and where we were going with that and brainstorm a bit, and You made the comment that what I'm, what I do very well is creating a sense of intimacy in a very short amount of time.

Anthony, when I tell you that that was like a life changing thing for me, I mean that with the utmost sincerity. Like I viscerally feel it now. Like that was such an incredible moment for me to feel so seen by somebody and to have words put to the thing. that I couldn't say for myself because I don't experience it on the other side, right?

Like I give, you know, as much safety and space for people as I, as I can. And I continue to want to improve that. But I feel like it was really having somebody who, you know, sort of theoretically in the sense of how long we've known each other, it's like, you don't know me that well, right? It's like, but you also really know me.

And you understand me in a way that I think was so incredible to witness in just the quick unfolding of a friendship. But then for you to say that to me was just like the most incredible compliment and really incredible validation for what I'm doing and how I'm showing up. So just thank you so much for that.

It really meant the world to me.

[00:57:52] Anthony Kuo: Oh, that makes my heart so happy. And I love that it had that like effect on you and like, I, I believe it that like, you know, for, for me, it was just like, I was just stating the truth, you know, it wasn't like a thing I had to think super hard about. It was like, this is just the experience I have of you.

Um, and I'm also not surprised to hear that it was life changing because. Um, yeah, these like little pieces of identity that when we can embrace them, it's like, Oh, you come home to yourself just a little bit more. Yeah. And that frees you to be so much more yourself.

[00:58:32] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And it was just such an awakening for me to be able to be witness to that, to receive that and then be able to.

understand something else about myself that I can now name and bring forward consciously as well. You know, it's like it was happening organically, which is the beautiful way to like have a compliment like that come up, but to also just sort of have that recognition and be like, that's what I care about doing.

That's the thing. That's my thing. I would say like, Oh, I can talk to anybody. I, I'm, I'm willing to be vulnerable, but it was like, you really put two words, the the perfect summation of what I strive for with this show, but also in the relationships in my life, like even just meeting, literally meeting somebody new yesterday and having this moment of like, and just wanting to get to know somebody and asking those questions and saying, they're being like, okay, well, you know, When do you think that started?

Or what was that about? And then my wife comes up and she's like, are you podcasting her? And I'm like, yes, I

[00:59:36] Speaker 3: am.

[00:59:38] Nikki La Croce: I just don't have the microphone, but assume that's always the case. Um, so yeah, this has just been such a. A really wonderful journey to go on with you and to know that we're just at the start of it is really exciting.

Um, I know that we're, we're kind of rounding out the episode here, but before we do that, I do, first of all, I want to thank you so much for being here with me. I want to thank you for showing up and sharing your story and being exactly who you are and expressing so many things that a lot of people. I think consider, but don't really know what to do with.

And I'm excited for listeners to really be able to dive into their own journey and think about these things that you've mentioned. I also really hope that you know that this is, as a host and a friend, such an awesome experience to have where there are really important dialogues happening, but there's also levity that just brings like a smile to my face and a gratitude, um, for, for all that this is and this is becoming.

And so. Um, just thank you so much. And if there's anything else that you want to share before we hop off here, I, the platform is yours, my friend.

[01:00:47] Anthony Kuo: It is such an honor, Nikki. Um, thank you for stewarding such a beautiful space for have, for having such a fun conversation and talking about the stuff that's real.

Um, and. You know, I, I think that's something that I, I, I realize that I value, um, very highly is that like safety. I think that's why I could see it so quickly in you, that, that like creating intimacy in, in such a short amount of time, um, I've received feedback and compliments like that, that have been just eye opening and, and life changing.

And, um, people use different words for me because, you know, I'm a different person with my own energy, of course. Um, but they use the word safety. Um, and I think safety and intimacy are very, very close cousins, right? They're, they're two sides of the same coin. You can't have intimacy without safety. For sure.

Um, and. When I think about what I do and how I do it and why I do it, it's all about that. It's all about the safety, the safety to be real, the safety to share, the safety to be vulnerable, the safety to open yourself to your own exploration and understanding. And one of the things that I'm most excited about in my business and just what I'm putting out to the world is creating that safety in groups.

Um, right. Like I do that implicitly within a one on one client relationship with my one on one friends and, uh, and all of that. But in groups, how do you create safety in a community? So that people can share amongst themselves and the, the amount of healing and progress and support is just exponentially accelerated when it's not just me who, you know, a client, like you were, you were theoretically paying me to be nice to you, right?

Um, But it's another thing when a whole chorus of voices are validating you and seeing different aspects of you and you get to do the same. Um, the, the, just the opening and the transformation and the safety that's in my group program is really, really tremendous. And I think that's the antidote to what we've been talking about this whole time about like being alone.

Versus, you know, feeling isolated in this or versus feeling like you belong.

[01:03:39] Nikki La Croce: Yeah. A hundred percent. And I love the way that you articulated that to Anthony, like, I, I think that what you've hit on and I can relate to so much is being very good at the, I can sit here and I can create that intimacy. I can be here with you.

It's what I, why I've had issues with like putting my own content out there. Cause I'm like, I, there's some, if there's somebody there and I can. not only respond to them, but also like open, you know, the conversation or the environment to, to be safe and to have those conversations. That is something that I feel really confident in.

And the thing that I love about where we are both on our individual journeys and, and what we've shared with each other. And when you sent me this message the other day, and it just, it clicked so, so much with me was like that, What does that transition point from this one on one dialogue or this one on a couple of people dialogue look like into bringing that into a group of people who are having doesn't have to be identical experiences, but like similar feelings similar understandings of where they are in life and wanting that growth and while yours is focused on in certain regards, primarily on your career.

There's so much of that personal growth, introspection, the things that I'm really wanting to help people acknowledge and understand more within themselves through the podcast, through other content I'll be putting out and other things I'll be creating. And I'm just so excited to have you. in my corner in this and to be in your corner in this.

[01:05:13] Anthony Kuo: Oh, for sure. Here's to, you know, that saying, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go with others. Yes. Here's to that.

[01:05:22] Nikki La Croce: You are one of my others. Oh my gosh, Anthony, this has been such an A gift. This is, this conversation has been so highly anticipated, and I am eager to get this out to the world and just as excited and eager to, as you suggested, do one of these in person someday, maybe more than one.

Um, you know, happy to have you in Vancouver anytime. And, Yes, please. Like I said, I would love to get back to New York and see some of my people and grab a real slice of pizza and a real bagel. Things that I miss from the East Coast that the West Coast just can't do.

[01:05:57] Anthony Kuo: Yes, yes, I'm going to be the absolute biggest snob and show you all my favorite places.

[01:06:03] Nikki La Croce: My mother raised me with the mindset that there is not good pizza outside of New York, and the bagels are probably subpar too. So I really need somebody to show me around and give me give me the real experience.

[01:06:16] Anthony Kuo: You got it. I'm your guy.

[01:06:19] Nikki La Croce: Anthony, I appreciate you so much. And this has just been such a blast.

I can't wait for our next chat. Gang, thanks so much for joining me for this week's episode. I just appreciate your support and it means so much to me that you tune in week after week. The best thing that you can do to help spread the word about the podcast is if this episode resonated with you, go ahead and share it with somebody else, wherever you listen to your podcasts, or you can go ahead and subscribe to my YouTube channel and share it from there.

I also really appreciate it if you can leave a review on Apple Podcasts, because that really helps me out. Give people a better understanding of what the show's about and what you appreciate about the conversations that we're having. And until then, I'll catch you on the flip side.